Question 2: What is Truth?
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I guess I get to go first. Yay me. :(
There are two kinds of truth:
1. Scientifically proven truth – Gravity exists. We all stick to the planet. If you heat water, it boils. There is absolute truth where the scientific method can be used to produce verifiable results.
2. Truth by Consensus. All other “truth” is truth by consensus. The group involved in the consensus can be as small as one, or as big as everybody. All that’s required is a brain and the ability to describe the world to yourself or someone else.
Very few people would argue that the sky is not blue on a clear day. They might argue over what “blue” means (on that issue, my father and I seem to have a difference of opinion with my mother on where blue ends and green begins), but once they agree on a common definition of the color they admit that it appears in the sky with the right conditions.
The description of God, Jesus, the Spirit, and all other religious concepts is generated by Truth By Consensus. God either doesn’t exist or chooses not to provide scientifically provable evidence of existence. That doesn’t mean that He doesn’t exist! It just means that we have to use Truth by Consensus to describe Him. And I don’t believe that God is limited by our understanding of science. If our beliefs are correct, God CREATED science, and can probably ignore those laws at will.
Don’t forget – small groups may produce a consensus that to them is Truth, even though other larger groups may produce a different consensus. While it is possible to reconcile those ideas, the human condition leads us to many arguments.
Many truths – some of them right. Some of them wrong. Most of them approximating reality.
scientific truth is not absolute, and frequently theories for results are proposed and put forth as truth, which are verifiably false, yet accepted widely as truth because everyone agrees it to be so.
My answer, perhaps, is not so much an answer, but a series of questions:
Are you asking what is “the truth”, or are you asking what is “truth”?
And if you are asking about “the truth” (with the definite article), then the truth about what?
And couldn’t one interpret the question “what is the truth” as “what in life do we know to be true”? And is this discussion of true things necessarily theological?
Just being difficult over here. :)
Melissa, sorry for the confusion in the post above – I had it titled “What is truth” and then the question in the post said, “What is the truth.”
Not that this will necessarily help, but I did mean to ask, What is truth? And I will let how you answer totally depend on how you interpret the question…
Actually, I’ve got a question (that seems to make sense for me) that goes beyond Melissa’s. Are you asking what is “Truth” (emphasis on the capital “T”) or what is “truth” (with a non-cap “t”)? John Franke and others would point out that there is a huge difference between the two, and that impacts how one approaches the praxis of answering the question.
RPS
Wow — much clarification needed here.
Okay friends – there it is. Run with it. What is Truth?
Truth is anything that can’t be proven false. This definition covers both scientific matters as well as social matters.
I guess implied in this definition is also some sense that the particular ‘truth’ in question must have some reason proving it is true, otherwise under my definition one could say just about anything, and as long as no one could argue against them then it would be truth.
I realize a critique to this definition means that there is a huge realm of unknown things. As in truths that have been made, but not proven false yet. Overall I feel that this is actually a strength to my definition.
Truth is this blog!
Like Mark Smith, I’d propose that there are two types of truth, although I’m going to go with a different delineation.
God’s truth
God’s truth is a description of the way things are. So when God says that we are loved, and that we are his children, that is a description of the way things really are.
Our truth
Our truth is our best attempt at seeing God’s truth through a very bad reflection. So when we say that the sky is blue, or that Jesus is our saviour, that’s an attempt at finding meaning out of what we can perceive in the world around us.
OK – I’m not even sure that I like my definitions, but it’s a shot.
I will go along with Mark Smith and Geoff in this approach. But also define it in a different light…
Eternal Truth
There are truths that exist that always have existed and always will exist. They are true and always will be true. They can never be proven false. These truths are there despite human knowledge of them. These truths are also universal.
Simple example: God.
Temporal Truth
Truth that is not constant. This is very much so changing and subjective. They are not universal. For instance – let’s say that I desire a drink of lemonade because I was thirsty. The desire is true. But what if I had water instead and was satisfied. No longer do I desire lemonade! The truth about my desire for lemonade was true for a certain amount of time. The fact that I had water instead doesn’t make the desire for lemonade false, it’s just that it was for a certain amount of time.
Right now it is 6:47pm according to my watch. In a minute it won’t be. Does this make 6:47pm false? No. It is still true, just not at the moment.
Both eternal and temporal truth have impact on life in some form or another. Some forms have more impact than others. Consider the temporal truths of science in the 17th century. They impacted society in huge ways! The effects are still felt – but the basis of it is forgotten. But then consider something like God’s existence and how he has made us to exist with him. The effects of that – and our longing to be with him – are found all throughout history in all forms of society.
This becomes a little bit difficult when something like the death and resurrection of Jesus comes into play. Is it eternal or temporal? Well – it began at a certain point in history. However, it is now truth that has no end and is universal.
Umm…that’s all.
I just posted a blog about this.
http://emergingmission.com
It relates pretty darn well to the question at hand.
Cheers.
I’m an iddiot….
http://emergingmission.blogspot.com
that’s all.
My Answer:
1. I’m not sure.
2. I’m also not sure whether or not I care, entirely.
3. If I do care, I’m not sure it matters in the grand scheme of things.
4. If it does matter to someone else (or to me despite my conviction that it doesn’t) I’m pretty sure I won’t agree with them (or myself in another twenty seconds).
5. Wait a minute…is there really a grand scheme of things?
I’m only partially kidding. I think I might even be serious.
Ok. It’s been twenty seconds…
I think that perhaps “Truth” is an illusion perpetuated by those who need something constant and absolute to cling to in a world that is constantly (but not absolutely) changing. I could define truth by a series of adjectives (i.e. truth is objective, truth is relative, truth is unchanging, etc.) but no combination of adjectives could approach the completeness of what we expect in “definitions.” It would be a little like trying to define the essence of Cookie Monster by saying “Cookie Monster is blue.” That may be technically correct, but still doesn’t give a complete picture. In fact, the more I think about it, perhaps there is no such thing as an adequate definition — not for a living, growing, changing, being (I do realize that Cookie Monster is just a muppet), and certainly not for the Creator of the Universe, or even the creation for, that matter.
But you didn’t ask us to “define” truth. You just asked “What is Truth?”
So, perhaps truth is all of the things written here and throughout the long history of this ancient question; all of our descriptions, illustrations, theories and definitions taken in sum total, both conflicting and complementary.
[author of comment flinches in anticipation of the inevitable barrage of outrage headed his way]
Truth is what people claim when they don’t have facts.
Truth is that which corresponds to reality.
Thus, even if a group, large or small, proposes some grand idea and believes in it passionately, that belief is not true (or does not correspond to the truth) if it isn’t reality. So no, consensus does not make something true. Prior to Copernicus and Galileo, many millions of people firmly believed the sun went round the earth, but that consensus didn’t budge our solar system one bit.
And truth is not an illusion, whether prompted by some apparently inferior need for constancy or not. The truth of the matter is that, for all this world changes, a great deal of it stays the same and every single person on the planet needs that consistency and would go mad without it. Two conflicting ideas cannot simultaneously be true unless those ideas refer to something well outside the consistent reality we experience on a daily basis.
Which raises the real question – how do we know that what we think is true is actually true, ie, that it actually corresponds to reality, to God? That I don’t know.
I’ll quote Ludwig Wittgenstien and provide a bit of commentary:
“No one can speak the Truth if he has not mastered himself. He cannot speak it; – but not because he is not yet clever enough. The Truth can be spoken only by someone who is already at home in it; not by someone who still lives in falsehood and reaches out from falsehood towards truth on just one occasion (Ludwig Wittgenstien, Culture and Value).”
There are truths and there is Truth. truths are those propositional statements that individuals believe and teach. These truths, however, are not True unless they are embodied by individuals or a community of individuals. This is why Wittgenstien says that “The Truth can be spoken only by someone who is already at home in it; not by someone who still lives in falsehood and reaches out from falsehood towards truth on just one occasion.” Thus, in a Gospel sense, we can make many claims about what is true, but these statements comprise no real Truth until we enact them as a community of Christian believers (with God’s help, of course). Wittgenstein helps us see that simple mental ascent to the truth of the Gospel is not enough to make it really True (although he was not a Christian himself). What is needed is a continual reaching-out from falsehood toward truth (Jesus said, “Abide in me…”). An example of this continual reaching-out can be seen in the regular sharing of the Eucharistic meal or washing of feet. I’d like to provide some more examples, but I’ve run out of space. Feel free to critique or suggest via my e-mail or comment box on my blog.
Grace and Peace,
Andrew
Nathan: What is reality? And what happens when you and I both observe something “real” but see two completely different things? And why is the need for consistency “inferior?” (your word choice, not mine). If it’s true that the sun does not go around the earth just because people believe it to be true, what happens in another 500 years when we discover that neither does the earth revolve around the sun, although we fervently accepted that as “true” as well?
And, as you alluded to, how do YOU know that two conflicting ideas cannot be true? Or that everyone in the would go mad without the consistency that apparently makes them so inferior?
Just curious.
I’ll agree with Nathan.
Truth is the relationship between belief and reality; it is the degree to which our beliefs match reality. An example:
I believe my keys are by the door to the garage. I run into reality when I try to leave and discover my keys are not there. My belief is false.
Truth can be trivial or more consequential. Consider the man who flings himself off a high-rise building believing he can fly. His running into reality will likely be more painful.
A Christian finds the most consequential truth in the relationship between belief in God and its corresponding reality.
Neal -
“What is reality?”
That which is actually real no matter what our perceptions are. Gravity, as has been alluded too above, is reality. Gravity is acting on every single object in the universe even it if that action is so incredibly minute that, were that object a human being, it could not be sensed. That is just one example.
“And what happens when you and I both observe something “real” but see two completely different things?”
Perception is not reality, which is a line that seems to get pretty blurred nowadays, particularly in the pomo crowd. Just because we perceive different aspects of reality doesn’t mean that something is wrong with reality or that reality doesn’t exist; one, or both, of our perceptual abilities isn’t up to snuff. That includes the possibility that the reality in question is far, far too big for our human limitations to comprehend – such as God.
“And why is the need for consistency ‘inferior?’ (your word choice, not mine).”
Sorry, but stating that people are perpetuating an illusion out of some need implies your own superiority because a) you see it as an illusion (and seeing through an illusion is better than being fooled by it) b) you don’t have that same pesky need and c) you recognize that the world changes whereas they are too scared? foolish? ignorant? to accept this ‘reality’. In my opinion that sentence sounded pretty condescending, is what I’m getting at.
“And, as you alluded to, how do YOU know that two conflicting ideas cannot be true?”
How do you know they can? Everyday experience will tell you that 2 conflicting things cannot be true. You cannot be in two places at once, you can’t be awake and asleep, you can’t both be holding your house key and it be 100 feet away on the opposite side of the house, etc.
“Or that everyone in the would go mad without the consistency that apparently makes them so inferior?”
That is simple; if your senses no longer worked consistently and what is hot one moment is utterly freezing the next and there is no way for you to predict the change or know which it will be until you actually put your hand on it would drive anyone pretty bonkers. The very nature of our existence depends on a universe that maintains a high degree of consistency, from the subatomic to the cosmic level.
Seems I came late to this party, so I hope it isn’t over.
Jesus Christ is the Truth.
How hard is that?
So true Geoffrey.
Some people make it hard.
Some people want to make it very hard for others (or themselves).
Yet the message of the Gospel was designed for children to understand, and children with faith often understand Jesus better than highly intellectual adults.
The Truth is the thing that sets me free yet so many who call themselves try to use their version of the truth to put people in a place. I know that Jesus is the truth. But I find many people who are still all about the Black and White but forget about the Gray-ce.
I feel more free in some ways than ever before. And yet those who seek to lord their version of the truth over my head, will tell me that I’m creating my own faith.
I used to think I understood God.
The more I think I understand, the more I seem not to get.
I thought about this even more. The Truth is…..I don’t know anymore.
The truth is Jesus.
Jesus is the way to God.
Truth is God loves people.
Truth is He created us in His image.
The truth is in the narrative, it’s the power of a story that shapes our lives.
Jesus says that he IS the truth. He doesn’t say “my words” are the truth, or “the words of the bible” are the truth. Words are flawed and imperfect. This is the problem I have with the whole inerrancy of scripture doctrine.
Jesus says that he IS the truth. How does one get to know the truth if the truth is a person? By getting to know the person. Truth, then, is inherent in relationships. You can know all the facts and data of my life from reading my blog, or my income tax returns. But you’ll never know me the way my mother knows me, my wife knows me, or my dog knows me. They all have relationships that reveal deeper truth of who I am.
Same with Jesus. I’m not even sure his intention was to convey that “I am the only truth.” (Or else he would have said “only,” right?). He did, of course, say “no one comes to the father but through me” but I don’t interpret that to have anything to do with truth–it’s about coming to the father, which is a different subject altogether (and an equally abused one, too, IMHO).
Truth is relative –> relatives –> those related to you –> those you relate to/with –> Truth is relationships.
What did it mean when God said “I am”.
Did that mean He was God…the only God….I think so. He didn’t have to say Only.
Just a question.
The problem with words like “only” and “I” and “am” is just that: They’re words. Flawed, fallible, and limited in scope. God didn’t say “I am.” Moses did, attributing it to God, because it’s the closest approximation he could come up with. Even if one subscribes to the idea that all the New and Old Testament writers were just hollow vessels taking dictation from God, God still has to use our limited vocabularies and constructs to convey as best as possible what little can actually be conveyed using them. So, no, God didn’t say “only.” Did God _have_ to say it, did God deliberately choose not to, or in the end, does it really matter?
In the end, we will each read into the text whatever we see in it, bringing our own personal experiences, linguistic biases, and understanding of God’s nature to bear.
Rick, it seems as though in so many comments, you have gone from uncertainty about what truth is to a comfortable certainty and understanding. I praise God for that. I’m just not in the same place. To me, God saying “I am” doesn’t imply a monopoly on the “to be” verbs any more than Jesus saying “I am the truth” implies a monopoly on truth.
I’m content to live with my uncertainty. In fact, it probably gives me as much peace and solace as does your certainty. Praise God for that, too.
I quickly skimmed through the conversation and was mildly humored especially at the attempts to catorgorize or label using terms such as temporal, eternal, “God’s Truth,” and “Our Truth.” Truth. What is truth? Truth is truth. Anything that is true is truth.
Rick,
I found great understanding in a thorough study of the phrase “I am.” It doesn’t mean what we western, English-speaking readers automatically think it means. A good study of Hebrew may help you immensly. It did me.
We are baptized in the truth when we become believers. I was blind but now I see.
It’s a different dimension that is tangible and full of substance. It is a place where there are no shadows. A place where you can see every direction at the same time. When you find it your in awe of it. It is God.
I appreciate the compassion of the people on this website. I’ve been on other blogs where it’s as though people are trying to beat you into an understanding that they have.
To all the above, I’m listening.
Sue, Travis, Neal, thank you.
It’s a weird time in my life.
When you start to question what God is truly doing?
In Isaiah it tells me that “former things will pass away and a new thing is coming…I will show it to you before it happens”.
I take that seriously.
I think God is showing us a new thing, that is actually the old thing.
Church the way it was supposed to be not the way our western culture as dumbed it down.
We want comfort when the real message, for me is, we are to be comfortable with discomfort.
Church was not meant to be a big self help organization.
It wasn’t supposed to be ….you do this, and you win the prize and go to Heaven.
To me, salvation came the minute I accepted Christ.
Life is about living that out.
I’m not concerned with where I’m going when this life is over, I’m concerned about loving God, living His way, serving all people, and so on and so on.
I’m rambling.
But thanks folks.
This is a great place to come and chat.
Travis, I too have been looking more deeply at the Hebrew.
Any good books that can help me?
Suggestions would be well received.
Rick,
I echo your sentiments about edifying yet challenging dialogue. No one is necessarily more right than anyone else and we all have valuable learnings from our journeys to offer one to another.
I will be taking Hebrew in Seminary soon. My only undergraduate course used Biblical Hebrew as a grammar. I have found Biblical Literacy by Rabbi Telushkin to valuable and extremely easy to read for a more contextual understanding of the praxis of the language.
Rick,
FYI: “Biblical Literacy” is not a specifically Hebrew language book. It is a walk through the major parts of the OT through the eyes of a Jewish Rabbi who is likely to have one of the best understandings of the Torah and entire OT. In reference to the “I am what I am” words, I have taught to understand that better as “I will be who I will be.”
Rick,
I’m in agreement with you about how you see the church. As God has recently been trying to awaken something new within me, I’m finding He’s been doing the same in others hearts.
I’ve been blessed to live life in the Old Testament so to speak: Understanding there is an enemy, we’re prayer warriors fighting a battle, learning to be disciplined, where iron sharpens iron, etc. But now the Lord’s been saying it’s time to step into Grace, into the New Testament.
I was angry at some who hurt me, but now realize (maybe) their walk has not brought them into the Grace period yet. This is where I’m still learning to practice patience and allow God to open their eyes. I’m now drawn to humble voices that say, “I’m not there yet, don’t look up to me, I’m beside you…”
I realize my viewpoint could be flawed because it’s “my” point of view. And even though I believe !00% to be true what I’m saying, others will see shadows in my truth that I cannot see. Again, that’s why I believe only God’s truth is pure, there’s no shadows.
I still get frustrated with people when they ask me “where do I go to church?” It seems so silly to me. My wife and I are so out of that phase of our lives. We have two teenage boys and it’s amazing when you let them see Freedom and experience it, how much more they grow.
I get what you are saying about the Grace Phase.
Do you ever worry that this may all sound to free to be real?
lol. The old perfect attendance Rick sometimes comes creeping out to say, “Rick, are you sure freedom is like this?”
I’m learning and hearing from God to preserve my peace and freedom at all costs.
The difficult part is doing that within the confines of my job.
I’ll get there…God is good.
Truth is relative. Truth is RELATIVE to TIME.
At one time, the world was flat. That was the “truth”. Not the ULTIMATE truth, that humans came to understand through improved science. But it would have been the truth to anyone you asked AT THAT TIME. It’s kinda like the “does a tree still make a sound, if no one is around to hear it” thing. Truth is an enigma.
It would be refreshing to meet someone who knows how to tell the truth. The truth is not a pretty thing most of the time…and hard to put a positive twist on.
When people tell you they want the truth…thats not what they really mean…They want you to sugar coat it, so it appears to be something it is not.
Mark Smith refers to gravity as an example of the truth. What is gravity? We only observe the effects of gravity. But, those effects are consistent, hence we preface the word gravity with the word “law.”
In the same way, we cannot prove that there is a spirit that gives life, but we can observe the effects of God’s spirit. For example, what happens after death?
Is there life after death, hell or heaven?
Jesus said: “God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whosoever believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.” Then in John 10: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish—-.” Even if we have faith we still need reassurance. Here, below, is reassurance.
Based upon the teachings of Jesus there are only one of two things that happen to those when they die, they either; (1) perish, or (2) have eternal life. This truth can be observed in plant life. Notice that in Genesis 1, God gave to man all of the creatures that he had created. But, he gave limited plant life to man, only those plants that have seeds in their fruit and trees that have seed in their fruit. Based upon Genesis plant life can be classified as: (1) Those plants that God gave to man. And, (2) Those plants that God reserved for himself.
The scientists classify plant life as: (1) Annuals, and (2) perennials. The annuals are those plants that God gave to man, they are mortal. At the end of their season they die from their tops to their roots. They have perished. But, the perennials live from season to season. The foliage withers and and the plant appears dead. But there is life in the roots of the perennials and the next season there is a resurrection, new foliage, a new body.
Leslie E. Delahay
2529 Indian Creek Place
Oklahoma City, Ok. 73120
P.S. Would you like to know the truth about the man, created in the image and likeness of God? How about the “tree of good and evil? And, the tree of life? And, what was the forbidden fruit? I will give you a clue to the forbidden fruit. Elizabeth said to Mary, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.” The word fruit in scripture is in reference to an a human offspring.