Their real religion is Liberalism, and believe you me, they will make every effort to convert you to that one. The christian missionaries of old had nothing on these guys.

We need less Christians trying to convert and save people who they judge and deem different and unworthy (and even worse criminalize and persecute in the Uganda case), and more Christians reaching out to others in love, regardless of economics, gender, sexual orientation, culture, religious beliefs, etc.

That’s a tautology if ever there was one. Churches are spending money on ‘x’ when they could have been spending money on ‘y’ is not a valid argument for why churches should spend money on ‘y.’

My point was that you made a blatent statement ” There are churches who spend exorbitant amounts of money (in the millions) to crusade against homosexuals while not giving a dime to the poor.” Yet, you cannot back this claim up. Yes there may have been a mega church who spent money on billboards (that you admit you cannot recall the name of the church) but did they really not care fo the least of these among us?

My point was, I am tired of people making claims and statments that folks who may be opposed to homosexual practice, have no compassion, no love for justice, and no love for mercy. This is not true.

As to your claim that “For the Bible tells me so” is a documentary-please don’t insult my intelligence or anyone else’s, it is propganda and you know it.

All that being said, I suspect that you and I will have to live in the realm where we cannot agree…

Is there really no room for someone to call homosexual behavior sin without being labeled a bigot?

In our church homosexual people are welcomed, but homosexual behavior is considered sin. To ask for us to affirm something that we believe scripture is clear on denying, is to ask us to violate our conscience, surely you understand that?

I recognize that there are many who are motivated by fear of homosexuals because of the cultural pressure to do so, and because they have never known any… but I am sure you recognize that there are those of us in the church who fall into a different category?

I don’t see Jesus affirming anyone, welcoming everyone while simultaneously inviting them to become the kind of person whom God can affirm. Accepting Jesus’ welcome changes us.

I understand that the church has botched the message so poorly with the gay community that it is understandable that there is confusion, but the fact remains; there should be no question about ‘affirming’ people as they are. The question is not about who we really are, or what is really going on inside of us, nor is the question how stable and wonderful our partnerships might be, the real question is, who does God want us to become?

On this question, I am sure that you can see (even if you have honest disagreements with the position) that there are those of us who simply cannot find any room for homosexual behavior in who God has revealed Himself to be.

This is worlds apart from hating, fearing, disliking, homosexual people. Would you be willing to acknowledge that and begin to speak from within that perspective in the future?

But to assume that no churches, even Presbyterian ones, don’t do spend money in that way whether it’s a thousand or a million, is pretty naive. I’m willing to bet some Presbyterian churches in California sent some money to the Say Yes to Prop 8 Campaign.

There is also within the PCUSA and some other denominations, the Confession Church Movement which contains a key belief about homosexuals are sinful and shouldn’t be ordained. Each of those particular churches have different views on whether gays and lesbians can be members. Some places they are allowed as long as they don’t become elders or pastors. Other places might forbade it completely.

There is a list of churches on the Layman website. The Layman is a fundamentally conservative voice in the PCUSA that writes numerous articles railing against homosexuality.

http://www.layman.org/Home/Evangelism/Confessingchurches.aspx

Again, pretty common knowledge that there are churches of all denominations in existence who spend more money and time on crusading against gays and lesbians than they do any other types of ministry. There’s Dobson of Focus on the Family, Pat Robertson and the 700 Club and millions of Christians and therefore numerous churches that tune into every hateful anti-homosexual word and believe it to be gospel.

All you have to do is read a news article or watch a video and see that people get more upset and angry (volatile and violent even) over someone who is gay more so than someone who is starving to death.

No assumptions here. That’s reality. Check out “For the Bible Tells Me So” great documentary about the issue, very eye-opening.

It is pretty common knowledge that there have been some mega churches and denominations like the Baptists and the Catholics who have spent millions of dollars on Proposition 8 or anti-homosexual material. Currently in Uganda, Christians are trying to push a Anti-Homosexual bill through the government and into law.

I recall hearing or reading an article years back about a fundamentally conservative mega church that was spending something like 8 million on billboards that said homosexuality was a sin. I’m sorry I don’t recall the specific church.

What I do know is that there are churches who don’t allow gays, lesbians who are in healthy, loving and committed relationships to worship in their congregations much less be ordained. There are churches who spend exorbitant amounts of money (in the millions) to crusade against homosexuals while not giving a dime to the poor.

Name one Presbyterian church that does this please. Call them out here. I struggle when people make claims and assumptions and then don’t back it up, so please, back it up

Churches already make decisions about what counts and doesn’t count as sexual morality. Do I agree with every church’s definition of what counts and doesn’t count as sexual morality? No. Do I agree that a church should use its decisions on sexual morality to condemn, judge and hate others who don’t believe the same way they do? No. Do I agree that a church’s decision on what counts or doesn’t count as sexual morality mean they have a clear understanding of sexual morality and human sexuality? No. Do I agree that a church’s decision, etc., is the correct one? No.

This is much more complex than agreeing or disagreeing whether churches should be allowed to make decisions? We’ve got to be looking a lot deeper in our souls and hearts at more serious questions such as how a church or individual Christian defines sexual morality and understands human sexuality within the context of faith in a post-post-modern world.

Help me understand why you agree that churches should be allowed to make decisions on sexual morality and how those decisions impact people and communities of faith?