I’ve been spending this week with a group of young adults discerning calls to the ministry. They are Undergraduate Fellows, Congregational Fellows and Ministry Fellows with The Fund for Theological Education. Both Sarah and I were Ministry Fellows back in 2004-2005, and we actually met at the Summer Conference. I’ve been able to stay connected with FTE through a variety of ways, most notably my face has been plastered all over their website and around the FTE office, I’ve been known as “thoughtful guy” because of the photo. So it’s been fun to be back at this conference, surrounded by and working with so many young people so passionate about ministry and the church.
However, one thing I’m always struck by at FTE events is that it really draws primarily from the mainline denominations. There are some non-denominational folks, but it is primarily people who are Methodist, UCC, Episcopal, Presbyterian…and very connected and involved with their denominations (this is a stereotype – but a fairly accurate one I think). I’ve never been one to describe myself as a “hardcore Presbyterian,” but there are plenty of people here who are extremely loyal to their denominations, and love the history, tradition and liturgy of their denominations.
And while I respect that and think that for many of them it’s a really wonderful thing…I can’t say that personally I really understand it too much. For me, the Presbyterian Church (USA) is really a place that I just kind of found myself through a variety of connections and networks. In an age that is increasingly post-denominational, I just can’t say that I have super strong ties to my denomination. Our slogan for Presbymergent is that we “loyal radicals” – I’d have to say that I definitely fall more on the “radical” side of that, as opposed to “loyal.”
At any rate – while there are some really amazing people here, sometimes I struggle with just HOW committed some of these folks are to their denominations. Now – I can hear what you’re saying, “Sure, what right do I have to comment on their choices…?” And I probably don’t. However, I think there is a bit of a naiveté about the “rest of the world out there.” I made a comment in a breakout group about how we live in a post-denominational world, and how the majority of folks who are de-churched or un-churched really don’t care about denominations. Someone disagreed with me and basically said that I was wrong, and that on the whole, people really DO care about denominations.
So I know it takes all kinds…and I don’t want this to be seen as an attack on anyone who is really commited to their denomination. I have many friends who are – and many people who are recent “converts” to new denominations are very passionate about their new found home.
However, no matter where we fall on the “denominational loyalty” spectrum – I think it’s important to at least be aware that many people today who we will be ministering to are NOT as passionate as we may be about our denominations. We DO live in a post-denominational age, and it would be unwise for us to think that people care about these institutions like they used to in the past.
So – what do you think? Am I full of crap? Do I just not get what it means to remain loyal to a denomination? How have you experienced the post-denominational world we live in?
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Mike Croghan has an interesting post on his blog today that I think relates to this conversation:
http://mcroghan.blogspot.com/2009/06/emerging-mainline-too-big-for-your.html
I think we are most definitely in a post-denominational world. My decision to join the UCC from my native ELCA was partly theological, partly political, and entirely ecumenical. When I graduate, barring any unforseen circumstances, I know that I will circulate my paperwork among a variety of traditions that are in communion with the UCC, not as a way to bash my adopted church home (which, yes, I do love and appreciate and maintain a certain level of loyalty to) but in a way to demonstrate that prayer of Jesus Christ that is my denomination’s motto: that they all may be one.
The church is much wider, much larger, much more than any one denominational tradition can include. These traditions do, of course, provide a particular lens through which ministry can be viewed, but the simplification of the post-denominational world — the move toward the singular moniker, “Christian” (though I do think its still a duality of “Christian” and “Catholic” in the popular culture), especially in a Western context — cannot be ignored.
I wouldn’t necessarily say you are full of crap, once again it will be an argument of semantics. In today’s present-day church, you have people who are either in a mainline denomination, non-denominational, “I’m a Christian and I don’t believe in labels,” or the house church/let’s meet in my living room and be likeminded church.
Either you are hardcore about being labeled a Methodist, Presby, etc. (I think this has more to do with church sports leagues more than anything else) or you are hardcore about bragging on your non-denominationlism. However, when you break it down, they are all denominations. Even those that don’t want to be connected to a denomination are following something and belong to something.
For example, a guy grows out his hair, shaves most of his head except the part down the middle. He spikes it up and colors the tips hot pink. He declares “I am now postmodern and unique; I am an individual.” Then you see him hanging out with others that are just like him. That person isn’t any more unique than the next person, he has simply found his identity in a certain following.
To state, “we do live in a post-denominational age” is simply placing you in another group or following and making the attempt to be unique or say something different, really not that so different.
Where I would agree is that people are not as loyal to their sole denomination as they once were. If you were to move from one state to another, you are more likely to find a church that fits your needs over staying within one line of a denomination. But more than likely, you will find the church that meets your specific strand of belief or dogma. Good stuff to throw out there though.
I’ve done a lot of thinking about this over the last 24 hours, and this is where I’ve landed:
Yes, I believe it is true that we are in a post-denominational culture. “Un-churched” or “under-churched” or “de-churched” folks who end up at churches end up where they do because the like the pastor, or like the community, or like the worship, or maybe just because the church is close to their home or place of work. There is also a significant group of “churched” people who, if they moved to a different town, or if they had reason to be church-hunting, would not let denomination factor into their decision about which church to attend.
That being said, there are yet a significant number of people who do, for good or for bad, feel a strong sense of denominational loyalty. Sometimes it is because they are cradle Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc. Sometimes (as is the case with me), it is because they moved from a non-denominational background into a denomination, and in the process, had reasons to really investigate and weigh the theology and practices of the denomination into which they were entering. There are people who are loyal because they agree with a particular denomination’s theology or structure or stance on particular issues. There are people who are loyal DESPITE these things!
My issue comes when we translate the “yeah, it’s a pretty post-denominational culture” into an implied directive that the church abolish denominations or find them distasteful, simply because they don’t match the culture. It hits at one of the struggles of the church in all its forms: what parts of “being church” should take on the look and feel of the culture, and what parts of “being church” should be distinct from (in order to transform) the culture?
I certainly don’t have much of an answer to that question when it comes to denominations. But I do know that, for me, it is possible to live in some tension, where I appreciate my own denomination for a variety of reasons, but where, at the end of the day, the gospel message and its implications necessarily transcend denominations. If I am talking about my faith with someone, I don’t talk about it in terms of my denomination; I talk about it in terms of how my life has been shaped by the grace of God.
But just because I see the gospel message as a post-denominational message, it doesn’t necessarily require me to give up on denominations. Others may find themselves coming to different conclusions about this, and that’s cool. But I just wanted to toss out the idea that the relationship between the denominational church and a post-denominational world certainly can exist in shades of gray.
Catholics have said for years there shouldn’t be all these denominations – that the people should all come back to the Catholic church. ;-)
There are plenty of people in the pews who are very strongly connected to the denomination. Some seem to know everyone else in leadership in the denomination. I’ve heard folks in the congregation here say, “I was born a Presbyterian, raised a Presbyterian, and I’ll die a Presbyterian.
I look at the obituaries and I see, “He belonged to Rotary and First Baptist Church.” It actually bothers me that people “belong” (like owned property) in this way. I wish it would read they were “a Member of” these things. Christians belong, body and soul, to our Savior. To me, that’s the higher calling, and ought to be mentioned as the chief part of our identity – in life and in the obituary.
As to being post-denominational, it depends upon your perspective…
Post-denominational seems to suggest there aren’t any denominations. A Ghost Town suggests to me that there are structures remaining, but people no longer inhabit it. But apparently not everyone agrees with that definition.
I recently came across a website which listed “Ghost Towns”. Most all the towns listed have residents, and some have quite a few thriving businesses. One of the listings actually has a population of 26,000 people.
It seems to me that we are largely moving away from denominations as the old guard dies off.
Moving away from denominations seems to suggest that we don’t see a connectional church in our future. It also suggests we don’t value our baptismal vows. Denominations have served as a life-jacket when a church has burned down or gone through great crisis. Denominations help us in several ways. But denominations carry a lot of baggage that weights us down and restricts our movement.
If you mean that people are able to join for worship with a congregation in nearly any denomination, or lack thereof, regardless of their previous affiliations, then yes, we are getting close to being post denominational (don’t tell the lcms though). But as long as we still have people claiming to be of a specific denomination, and leaving money to their church, and unwilling to attend any worship service in another denomination – then it seems we aren’t really post-denominational.
The first thirty years of my spiritual journey lead me through two heavily denominationally-minded groups. I’ll leave out the names, but I will describe them as Fundamentalist Baptist and (ultra) Holiness Pentecostal. Opposite poles on the spectrum of doctrine and experience, for sure! One thing they had in common, however, was “tribalism” – not just a conscious loyalty to their particular group (which may not always be a bad thing), but they also elevated their own tribe above all other tribes and developed a certain elitism that I eventually found quite distasteful.
Both groups, in my experience, were suspicious of not just other denominations (in this case: Methodists, Catholics, Anglicans, Church of Christ, Lutherans, oh, and Presbyterians [smile]) they were also highly suspicious of others branches within their own general denominational expression, some with even other churches in their particular denomination.
The thought among my Baptist affiliation (this is my experience, I’m not painting with a broad stroke to include all Baptists) was: “As long as they’re Baptists – you should be okay … but make sure they believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture! And, of course, stay away from those who ‘speak in tongues’ even if they call themselves ‘Baptist’!”
Among the Pentecostals with which I later fellowshipped (yeah, I guess I don’t listen too well!) the same bias prevailed, but at an even greater extent. If you didn’t ‘speak in tongues’ you were not really saved, and even if you did and you weren’t baptized in a particular manner and follow all the nuances of their doctrine and practice, you were still going to hell. All other denominations? They were deceived and not Christians at all. “We have THE truth!” was not merely an attitude, but a declaration from the pulpit, classrooms and living rooms more times than I care to recall.
Later, as I was transitioning out of this mess – but still being in a ‘moderate’ holiness/Pentecostal church – I had a little run-in with the pastor. Long story here, and I won’t bore you with all the details, but I had returned to this church at the request of the pastor’s son and the pastor. The church had declined immensely and I was brought back in as an agent of change.
I was in the sanctuary of the church preparing for a special service and the pastor came in. He approached me with dead seriousness and asked “If I asked you to take out your earrings, would you do so?” (Pastors in this tradition are use to being ‘obeyed’ without a second thought … and this was in the early ‘80s.) I thought for a few moments, and politely said “No.” He didn’t quite know how to handle a leader in his church, back by his request, saying ‘no’ to him.
He then accused me of being “defiled” by my association with other churches. (He was always uncomfortable with me fellowshipping and ministering with ‘other’ churches. ‘Denominational’ attitude here?)
My response was passionate, yet respectful, “‘Defiled?’ Oooohhhhh, nooooo! God has allowed me to experience the beauty of the Body of Christ in so many of its expressions! I wouldn’t trade that for anything!” To which he walked away, upset. I think I was gone within a year.
Personally, I think – and hope – denominationalism is on the decline. All I’ve been seeing over the past few decades seems to indicate this. I’m seeing a higher loyalty arise in the hearts and lives of God’s people … a loyalty that supersedes all others – even our own ‘tribes’. It is a loyalty to a King – Jesus; and a loyalty to a cause – the Kingdom of God. I love this unity in diversity and I am so excited to see the Body of Christ moving towards unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Can denominations find a place in this new environment? I’m sure they can, but as a tools, not exclusive tribes. (Now someone’s going to say that I called denominations ‘tools’ … oh well.) If denominations can surrender exclusive loyalty to an institution/tradition and willingly surrender their highest loyalty to Christ and his Church, they can make tremendous contributions to this ever-expanding Kingdom while keeping their unique flavors and expressions.
… I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
No, Adam, you’re not “full of crap”.
Adam,
I am a Disciples of Christ pastor. I’ve been ordained nearly 25 years, and my journey has taken me across the spectrum of Christian communities. Born Episcopalian, I converted to the Foursquare Church in HS, and moved on to the Stone-Campbell Movement, finally landing as a Disciple, even though I spent time hanging out with Baptists and Presbyterians while ordained Disciple. So, I guess I’m not the poster-boy for loyalists. But, as I get older I have begun to realize the importance of tradition. I’m extremely ecumenical — but then that is part of my tradition. Yet, I do think we need to ask why we are part of a particular group.
I spent about a year and a half as a member of a Presbyterian church. I enjoyed it — enjoyed the congregation — but I always knew I wasn’t Presbyterian. I spent time hanging with the baptists, but I knew I was baptist. I grew up Episcopalian and am a historian of the Anglican tradition, but I knew I wasn’t Episcopalian. I’ve been enriched by these traditions, but I discovered that I am truly and loyally Disciple. It took time, but if we don’t feel a sense of connection with our tradition, then we need to ask why we’re there. If it’s mere convenience — good pension, etc., is that a good enough reason?
I’ve been blogging through a book by Michael Kinnamon (General Secretary of the National Council of Churches) and Jan Linn (also a Disciples Pastor) entitled “Disciples: Reclaiming Our Identity, Reforming Our Practice.” A key claim in this book, made by one of the nation’s leading ecumenists, is that claiming our identity as a tradition is key to our renewal and reform.
And while I agree that that we live in a “post-denominational” age, and have benefited from it, there may be a down side. In many ways non-denominationalism has become a new form of sectarianism — and many of these non-denominational types won’t have anything to do with ecumenical groups (which is why FTE has mainly Mainliners).
So, I ask you, why be a Presbyterian? From experience, I can say that it may take you a number of years before you can really answer that question! Who knows, 20 years from now you may even discover that you are now more loyalist than radical!
A hardcore, unashamed, Lutheran loyalist here! Glad I stopped by.
If we live in a post-Christian world, of course non-Christians (or folks who don’t attend church with any regularity) don’t care about denominations, because they also don’t likely concern themselves too much with Christianity in the first place! But just because the “unchurched” (not crazy about that term) don’t care about denominations, it doesn’t mean that denominations are not important.
Denominations are warehouses of traditions and teachings, caretakers of particular charisms of the Christian movement. If we just let these denominational warehouses crumble in neglect, we lose part of the Christian whole. Where would the Christian movement be without the Methodists’ traditional emphasis on holiness or Lutherans’ radical articulation of grace or the Episcopalian embrace of the prayer book or the Presbyterian articulation of the sovereignty of God or …. I fear the type of Christianity that emerges when the denominational warehouses burn down and all that’s left are some embers to sort through. Post-denominational types have a smörgåsbord of traditions and practices and theologies in which to dabble and from which to choose precisely because there are denominational loyalists out there who maintain and retain their particular charism within the larger Christian tradition.
My Lutheran church is incomplete without its Presbyterian, Assemblies of God, Methodist, Episcopalian, Church of God in Christ, etc. partners. But by being Lutheran, it holds onto charisms that the other churches lack, just as the Assemblies of God church, by being intentionally and unashamedly Assemblies of God, retains charisms that my church lacks. We need denominations and, within those, we need loyalists, so that the God-given insight, wisdom and truth given to those churches may be retained for the Whole Church of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord.
Hi Adam, Kelly from your roundtable group here.
My thoughts on denominational loyalists, as someone who is clearly not one (RC –> UCC) are as follows. For some people, I believe it to be a fear-based response. It’s uncomfortable to think about the fact that there are real (and I think there are real) differences in theology, in the way we interpret the Gospel message. For some people, denominational loyalty protects us from the discomfort of having to back up our beliefs. Although this may be a category that contains a few participants of the conference you and I are at, I do not think that this is the case for most people who are here.
I believe there is another set of people who feel sort of parental towards their denomination. i.e. it’s flawed, but it’s still my baby. I think there are a lot of people who see a lot of potential in the things that they grew up with, and it’s a hard thing to say to someone “Well, all these other traditions get to stay, but yours is done.” Unless we are suggesting that all denominations come to an end, which I guess is what we’re talking about if we believe we’re coming to a post-denominational world.
(Aside: the interfaith network of campus ministries I have been working with recently got into a heated argument about this topic over e-mail, which sprung out of a misspelling by a nondenominational minister of denomination as “domination.”)
However, to me, this seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think that we need some way to carry our history with us, and I think it’ll be hard to do with a world full of churches that are completely new. I think there is something to be said for my ability, hard-won, to claim my Roman Catholic background, to praise the rich tradition of social justice and radical activism by Catholics and to claim it as part of my spiritual DNA while simultaneously holding onto my belief that I am not required to stay there. The Catholic Church’s journey will continue in one direction, while mine diverges. It doesn’t change or diminish the fact that they were one path for awhile.
My new concern, these days, is that I haven’t been a member of my new denomination long enough to have the power to criticise. This is very tricky for me, since I feel I can see areas where growth, even radical growth, is needed, but I do not want to be disrespectful of a denomination that I only joined four years ago. Sometimes I miss the power I felt I owned as a member of the RC Church, since as a “cradle Catholic,” I had a “lifetime” (heh heh…twelve years? Fifteen? Twenty?) of experience to draw on in my criticisms. Curious to hear if anyone else has thoughts about this.
I’m skeptical of anything “post.” It brings to mind conversations about “postmodernity”- which I think is not entirely unrelated – and how Stuart Hall noted that it is a bit hubris to talk about the “age of postmodernity” when over 1/2 the world has yet left out of “modernity.”
Even so, while I would hesitate – and perhaps cringe a bit – at the idea of post-denominationalism, I am extraordinarily in favor of ecumenical ministries. I agree with the others who said that each denomination has gifts – and even perhaps different ways of telling the gospel – that are important not to lose.
I also think there is an issue of accountability that has to be addressed. “Community” takes both freedom and accountability seriously. Likewise, denominations have their own set of “accountabilities,” whether it be liturgical, confessional, hermeneutical, etc. Studying at the GTU in Berkeley has made me even more aware and appreciative of these differences. They are not just labels, but reserves of cultural identities that create communities of accountability which transcend time and space.
Lastly, I do not think that “Christian unity” need ever be institutionalized. Rather, it should be a unity within (not without) radical diversity.
To say that un churched people care about denominations is just a ridiculous statement by whoever said that. People have ZERO clue what Presbyterian or Methodist means and I really don’t think they care. I don’t know anyone my age that cares about a denomination. They care about a church, not a worldwide network of churches.
I might have missed it (I just re-read the comments to be sure), but did anyone actually say that un-churched people care about denominations? I didn’t find anyone saying that un-churched people care about denominations, or that it is the job of denominations to win un-churched people to their brand of Christianity. It seemed to me that even the denominational loyalists were all agreeing that denominations don’t matter much to those outside the church. But maybe I missed something, even on second (and third) read-through of the comments?
Also…I’m curious to hear more about your statement “I don’t know anyone my age that cares about a denomination. They care about a church, not a worldwide network of churches.” For you, what is the difference between “a church” and “a worldwide network of churches?” It seems that you would see ecumenism as a network, rather than as an expression of one church (one body) with many members. Is this correct? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Denominations are communities-in-community that can be helpful in providing resources, establishing ethical standards, fostering community, etc. In my denomination, the United Church of Christ (UCC), we are so diverse that it doesn’t even feel like a denomination. We’re a mixed bag of evangelical, reform, congregational, LGBT, feminist, black church, etc. We have many different polities, theologies, worship styles, etc. Despite all this plurality, we’ve decided to be united in our diversity. And I’m grateful for it. We all grow together as we learn from one another. The beautiful thing is that each congregation is free to be who they need to be for their particular context. I guess you could say we’re a post-denominational denomination. So, yeah, I’m loyal to this experiment in diversity called the UCC.
my thoughts are on my blog, they got too long to put here.
hi Adam…haven’t read through all the comments (sorry y’all) but wondered if you would consider my last sermon a postdenominational manifesto…? here’s the link, and, I promise, I don’t mention cyborgs. http://rudesermons.blogspot.com/2009/06/who-are-we-theological-musing-on.html
Thanks for your post, Adam – this is my first time reading your blog. While the culture may be moving toward a “post-denominational” future, I still think denominations have a very important role to play.
First off, they confront the reality that the Christian Church is sadly but visibly divided. I am glad that so many Christians are eager to move past our denominational divisions – but if all local congregations drop their denominational labels and become “Grace Church” or “Bible Church,” this division does not go away – in fact, it is amplified (from 10 denominations to 1000 congregations)! I have some very close nondenominational friends, but they rarely seem to know anything about their history, tradition, or “why they believe what they believe.” Each person mixes and matches their own beliefs (or the beliefs of the pastor) – and any overarching unity that exists seems to resemble the culture (power point, coffee bars) more than Christianity.
Denominations provide a history, a language, a tradition in which to live out the Christian faith. Each denomination brings its own gifts, as Chris said, to the larger body of Christ. In order for the Church to truly move toward a visible undivided (nondenominational) church, we must first listen to “the grace given to you in Christ” (1 Cor 1:4) in our brothers and sisters who are committed to different traditions from our own. Then, we can struggle together to find creative ways of building common ground while remaining faithful to our own own tradition. This is DIFFICULT ecumenical work, but I believe it is the best way to take each of our denominations beautiful and unique voices and blend them into a unified, harmonious chorus.
Lastly, I am 23 years old, and so I have grown up in postmodern culture. However, I believe that while postmodernism has brought some positive things (humility, for one!), many young people feel adrift, isolated, and disconnected. It’s hard to devote your life to something when all truth is relative, when everything is ultimately meaningless. This is why I know many friends my age who are finding peace and rest in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, which claim historical apostolic authority. In my own experience, I feel deeply committed to my own Methodist tradition – especially its balance of Scripture & sacrament, evangelical faith & ecumenical commitment – and yet still realize that my denomination is only one small part of the Christian Church and that we are called to “be one” (John 17:11).
The way to work toward healing the divisions of the Reformation (and beyond) is by understanding and appreciating the differences of the denominational traditions – not pretending they do not exist.
I wonder if Jesus officially recognizes our denominations we love so much?