This past Wednesday, Christian students from across the nation gathered at middle schools and high schools and prayed. This was part of a project that has been going on since 1990 and brings Christian students together on their campuses and encourages them to pray: See You At the Pole (SYATP).
I’m pretty sure while I was in high school, I was present at each every SYATP event we had – and I know I even had some t-shirts. I thought it was a great event – powerful to pray for my friends, my school, my community. I also remember thinking at that time, “Yah — they can’t keep prayer out of schools! Look at us!”
Fast forward 10 years and I am sitting in a circle of a group of youth ministry folk in Livermore, CA. It was my first time meeting this group, and they were all very inviting and welcoming of me. The youth ministry leaders are planning for the SYATP Rally they were going to have in the Tri-Valley (Livermore, Dublin and Pleasanton). “Hmm, how to tell them this isn’t something I’m interested in….” Well, it didn’t really come up that I wouldn’t be there, but I wonder if it will if I go back for a second meeting. You see, I’m not really interested in getting prayer back in the schools. I’m not really interested in being present with students while they pray for the strength to convert their friends. I do think helping students learn to pray and what works best for them is important – but I don’t think this is the way to go about doing it.
There is also something eerie, in a way, about gathering around an American flag to pray. I’m guessing it started because the flagpole was simply a common marker on all school campuses, but considering our current political climate, the way in which the American flag is a symbol of Empire and American politics and foreign policies have become too closely aligned with “Christianity” – I have a hard time gathering around a US flag to pray. In a similar vein, I think many churches should rethink the need to have an American flag in their sanctuaries.
So I did tell my high school students about SYATP – I let them know the information I knew, but also shared with them a bit about why I wasn’t going to be taking part in it. I let them know that if it was something that interested them, they should check it out, but that I wouldn’t be participating in it. I wasn’t at the pole this year for SYATP, and I don’t imagine I’ll go in the future. Some people made a good point by suggesting that perhaps I should be present to show the students an “alternative” to the type of influence or prayers they might hear from other youth ministry folk. I think that’s a valid point, but I think I can also do that without going to the pole.
What has your experience been with SYATP? Do you think I’m way off-base? Let me know.
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- A Program-Less Youth Ministry ‘Program’
- Every 15 Minutes: Mock Crash Scenes at High School
- The Pig of Truth: Experiencing God’s Presence
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{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }
Hey Adam,
I strongly agree with you on your points. I was an avid SYATP participant in HS, but haven’t been going to participate with students since I became a Youth leader a few years ago…
I don’t think that I am anti-patriotic, I just have a problem with mixing patriotism and faith.
Thanks for the post,
-Eli
i was the president of my “christian club” at a high school in fremont. as such, i attended SYATP every year and every year a few of the local pastors would come and support it. if i were a pastor (be it youth or senior) now i’d say that i would not participate in SYATP.
i don’t know if it’s because i’m older and now more jaded, if my theology has shifted, or if i simply don’t find this as effective but i feel as if there are better ways to show your love for others than showing up 200+ strong on the lawn in front of school while everyone is being dropped off. perhaps i do not have the same zeal as i did in my youth… but i think the root is that i find more value in reaching people relationally and that as a form of evangelism something like SYATP is more of a deterrent than anything. you might get labeled as one of those dorky church kids and high school kids are just plain mean.
… and maybe with those reservations i have now forgotten that the point of SYATP is more so to pray for your school than as an evangelism method… to unify the local youth… but i feel this can and should be done any time and not just on a wednesday in late september. i’m pretty far removed from youth ministry now, but going forward i’d love to see youth ministers harvest the power of technology to unify local church communities and make a difference with today’s kids so that they can make a difference on a larger scale.
i know that our outreach events in high school were very effective in bringing kids to church and to Christ… but this was 10 years ago and i think things have definitely changed. i don’t know you adam, but from what i’ve read i think you’re pretty progressive. i think it’s only getting tougher to reach today’s youth. as an encouragement to you i say: change the model. i think you’re on the right track.
Good points. I participated in one a number of years ago, because I was asked to and before I knew what it was really about. It did turn into a “religious-support-of-the-empire” sort of thing. And I guess that’s inevitable when you’re gathering around the flagpole adorned by a country’s flag. So that was my first and last SYATP
What made me sad was how the turnout at this event compared to turnout in church on an average Sunday morning. The fact that more people gathered around an American flag than in a sanctuary says something, and I’m not sure if it’s the fault of the church for not doing its job or of American Christians for getting their priorities mixed up, or both.
WOW Adam!!! Thanks for putting into writing why I too haven’t attended the SYATP these past 15 years. My first experience was one in Palatka, Florida and I haven’t been back since. I do check in with my youth kids to see if they are planning on going and what their experience is and (unfortunately) it is always the same….a conservative viewpoint of what Christianity should look like. It’s an evangelizing of the kids who do show up and judgment of the kids who don’t. Why can’t we form a public forum where kids of all faith can come together and celebrate what they hold in common rather than always comparing. Let’s get out of the “my faith is better than your faith” rules of order!!! Truthfully, I believe that the majority of the teens are already there and we’ve got to catch up to their more open understanding of how to be in the world.
BTW – I believe that we will always have prayer in school as each individual prays to their God…often it is directly correlated to exam time.
I agree with your take on SYATP 100%.
I’d suggest offering an alternative to your youth. A way that you can be with them in prayer in another venue. They may not all get that you aren’t there for theological reasons. Some of them might just see it as “Adam didn’t want to come pray with me.” So if you make sure to offer an alternative then they will realize that isn’t the case.
Great thoughts. I don’t like the image of praying TO a flag, even though that’s not what is really happening.
Does the pledge of allegiance ever bother you?
We’ve talked about this with our students over the years, no one understands its purpose. I’m not sure I understood it as a student and now as youth pastor, I’m not sure why it exists.
This year, frankly I forgot about it it and not one person, student, leader, parent, pastor, has mentioned it.
If the brainstormers (whom I do not question their love for God, only their methodology) of it were serious, it would happen weekly (Yes I understand that it can be used as starting point or whatever word/term you wish to use there but that’s not what the event is).
I get the letter and product brochure every year (not kidding, they sell shirts and stuff). It’s a lot of hype and attention that pours into one Wednesday morning that creates the wrong type of scene for many of our students and churches.
I’m all for taking a stand but in my opinion, these types of events prevent “evangelism”. I feel it creates “props” out of our students and I think we become part of the manipulation of this annual event. “Ok kids, take a stand for your Lord. Remember if you disown Jesus before men, He will disown you before the Father!”. Yes, that is manipulative.
Some may say, “Well sure, if you have SYATP and don’t follow up on it then yeah, it’s just a one day event …”. Follow up?? What do you suppose student ministry is? It’s all about follow up, throughout the week, on facebook, at starbucks, on the phone, with text messages, in our hearts’ prayers, …
Anyway, not trying to make this a long comment but I am obviously in agreement.
Does anyone else remember the awesome theme song from back in the day? Oh yeah.
I made this comment on facebook, but I don’t know if you use that at all.
I can perhaps agree with you when it comes to SYATP and I can definitely agree with you about getting American flags out of pulpits, but I absolutely cannot agree with you (if I understand you correctly) when you say:
“I’m not really interested in being present with students while they pray for the strength to convert their friends.”
Why would you be opposed to this?
1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Hey Brandon,
I think that what Adam meant by that comment was that he doesn’t support the “sell them the gospel” approach to evangelism which students are being encouraged to pursue. Can you truly love your neighbour is your sole intent is to convert them?
Would a better prayer be “God help us to incarnate you in the way we act towards our friends”, rather than “God, give us the strength to convert them?”
Adam, I come from a similar line of thought concerning SYATP. Though it’s only been a couple of years since I last attended SYATP (would have been my last year in high school, only 3 years ago).
I couldn’t agree with you more on the use of flags in sanctuaries/worship spaces, and I would agree that there’s definitely something odd going on when people who claim to follow Jesus, the LORD of Lords, gather around a cultural/political/empirical icon to praise and worship and pray in His name. I’m wondering what this oddness comes from though, are we truly concerned with becoming to closely associated (if, indeed, this hasn’t already happened) with American culture? (I’m afraid evangelicalism–broadly painted–might be too late to avoid this…)
Or, is it because we simply refuse to pray for our nation and our neighbors (domestically)? You claim to not want to participate because of the cultural implications of gathering around the Pole, yet you mention (as previous commenter Brandon pointed out): “I’m not really interested in being present with students while they pray for the strength to convert their friends. I do think helping students learn to pray and what works best for them is important – but I don’t think this is the way to go about doing it.”
I’m no Youth Minister, but I have interned in Youth Ministry for the last two summers, and I feel like your crossing a boundary that would upset some parents of the youth. (though, You should know & I should consider that I worked for a youth group in East Texas, so the cultural environment would surely differ than your location.) But in my encounter, such a stance would be a blow to a parent of a Youth, that their youth minister isn’t interested in praying with/for them about the things that youth are passionate about: their friends.
So I guess my question for you is, if a parent of one of your youth read this blog saw this stance and confronted you concerning your opposition to supporting your youth in prayer for their friends, how would you respond?
Thanks, Adam. I don’t mean to be condescending or degrading, but as someone who seeks to enter ministry (and possibly youth ministry), these are questions that I can’t let slip by. Thanks again!
I remember in the early 90s when this started I was pastoring my first church. A parishioner invited me to do this prayer thing at the courthouse around the flagpole. I did it for her, but it felt creepy. I decided not to do it again. When asked the next year, I told her why.
It is that Empire/Christianity thing and you aren’t an American unless your Christian, and on and on…
Praying to convert people? Well, it isn’t my version of faith.
I think you are right on. I think you can tell folks how you feel regarding your own conscience. That is a good thing to teach youth. No one should be forced to pray where they don’t want to and that includes youth leaders.
Some people may not understand, but that is ministry.
Good luck!
I think the event becomes whatever the student leaders want it to be. It can simply become a prayer to convert friends. It can become a prayer for the Spirit empowering them to be strong for Christ in the way they live, that Christ would shine.
To simply call this event meaningless as some of the comments seem to be doing, is off point to me.
With the constant tearing down of their faith this event gives them an opportunity to share their faith. I think it is sad when people have taken it to mean anything else. This is one time in the entire year where they can be open about being a Christian. I would encourage them to participate.
i don’t even think kids are praying for “their country” at SYATP
i know there wasn’t much of that this past Wednesday as i observed the group from the school i teach at praying
i just heard them singing songs of worship, sharing attributes of God for which they are thankful, breaking up into groups to pray for each other, and basically offering up their voices to the Lord at 7 in the morning
it was a good thing
maybe we shouldn’t pack what doesn’t need to be (or, isn’t intended to be) placed in the SYATP event
p.s. the whole “empire” discussion made me lol . . . like, you just said “empire.” :P
if i was honest, “i really don’t want to get up that early.” and i think most would understand that. &:~)
bro, I am with you.
Adam, I do congratulate you on having the courage to take a principled stand this early in your call, but I also hope you’ll have or make opportunities to affirmatively discuss your principles with (especially and most immediately) your own students and (maybe next spring) your colleagues. I’m thankful I never had to confront this specific issue, and my sons never brought it up (now a decade out of HS). But I’ve heard it attributed to Jesse Jackson that as long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in the schools. Indeed, the problem is for kids (and us) who have more nuanced and inclusive understandings of faith to know where we can be identified as Christians.
I also want to specifically comment on the issue of flags in Sanctuaries. My very progressive church had a special problem over it because the flag-s (remember there’s always that “balancing” Christian flag) were donated by a member in memory of her husband, and she gets her feelings hurt every now and then when she doesn’t think she’s seen them enough. But the last time it was addressed at full throttle happened to be when my older (elder) son was serving a one-year youth term on Session. He was pretty shy then, but offered the solution that has been the official policy of our congregation ever since: The flags come into the Sanctuary on Sundays of patriotic holidays, but are not placed at the front (which shifts for us). They’re placed at either side of the door where we go back into the World, where there are subordinate realms, at the end of Worship.
bks
Adam,
Great thought! I did attend SYATP this year only to have it reinforce the thoughts I had been having prior to the event, which happen to be very similar to the ideas expressed in your post.
I would also add Matthew 6:5
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”
Why do we have to pray in front of the school around the flag pole? What about praying in secret? What about gathering at a local church or similar location if we are serious about praying for our schools, leaders, and community?
Thanks again for sharing!
-Andrew
Wow! See You at the Pole brings back some crazy memories for me too.
In high school, I was the poster child for this sort of thing. Bedecked w/ WWJD bracelets, I was active in my youth group and president of the Bible Club at my public school. I spent the week before SYATP putting up fliers and posters, urging my Christian friends to attend the event and then commit themselves to a week of bold witnessing.
My attitude about faith has changed a lot since then…and, like you, I now have a visceral reaction to the idea of a group of people praying around an American flag. Furthermore, SYATP seems to perpetuate the “us vs. them” mentality that so often characterizes the evangelical approach to engaging the culture.
However, I think that, deep down, my problem is not really with the event itself, but with memories of the way I used to be. SYATP reminds me of a time I tried to convince a skeptical classmate that he had to accept young-earth creationism in order to be “a real Christian.” It reminds me of a time in which I used the Bible as a weapon. It reminds me of a time when I was convinced I was right about everything, a time when mixed politics and faith, a time when I did more talking than listening.
Students gathering together to pray is probably a good thing. I think that perhaps I am projecting a little bit.
Great post! I haven’t thought about SYATP in years!
you’re right on target. good post. And the most important thing is that you gave the youth the info, were honest and up front about your reasons for not going, and you offered a different theological perspective. You challenged them to think which is a good thing instead of just letting them blindly follow.
James,
Thanks for your comment. If you are correct, then I did understand Adam’s statement correctly. While I may disagree with the method of evangelism most people are taught, I certainly can’t fault them for the motives.
“Can you truly love your neighbour is your sole intent is to convert them?”
I say you can only truly love your neighbor if your highest purpose is to glorify God by leading them to repentance and a knowledge of the truth. To quote John Piper, doing otherwise is simply condemnation with a kind face.
Thankfully, I and my youth forgot about see you at the pole this year. Even when I was in high school, I think I had a problem with see you at the pole but, then again, I was listening to Rage Against the Machine and reading Howard Zinn in high school so maybe I was a strange case. Anyway, I really appreciate your blogging here.
Peace,
A.T.
Thank you for bringing this thought up. I’ve been involved with SYATP both as a student and as a youth pastor but my whole thinking about Christianity has started to question things I took for granted as the obvious way to live out my faith.
The last few years have been an awesome adventure and quite honestly, never thought about SYATP as I’m not currently a youth pastor.
You bring up some great points, can’t really disagree with any. The one thing I could add is maybe that SYATP played an important role in it’s time. Things have changed in our world and the sight of Christians praying while people are being dropped off is more of an agitator than a source of encouragement.
I wonder if living out our believes, daily in our schools, is a better idea than gathering at our flag poles once a year. It’s good to raise prayer up, it’s needed more than ever, but I wonder if it is better “used” in silent prayers throughout the day rather than “look at me as I pray for you”.
Just a thought!
I only wish I had those kinds ofcojones when I was a youth pastor.
I believe I have a slightly different take on all of this. This year was the first year I ever attended a SYATP rally. My family and I were missionaries and I grew up in Europe, where SYATP didn’t exist. However, I had heard about it and knew the basic premise.
I honestly do not know you, Adam, or any of the commentators, so my perception may be inaccurate, but it almost seems as if some people are simply looking for reasons not to like this event. Or maybe are looking for reasons to justify the fact that they already did not like it.
The reason why SYATP rallies are held around the US flag, is because that is one place where we, as citizens, are absolutely guaranteed the right of free speech. The intention is not to be ‘praying to a flag’. Another reason why meeting at the flagpole is a good idea, is because it serves as a visual aid to remind students that they are praying for the whole country and not just for their particular school. I’m pretty sure no-one has a problem with people praying for their country.
As for having a problem with praying for the conversion of souls? Maybe I would have a problem with that if the context was more like building up an army, but it’s not. I’m pretty sure the Great Commission emphasizes the importance of sharing the gospel with people. I’m also quite sure that the best way for us to show our love for Jesus is in how we love other people. What exactly would be more loving than caring enough about someone to want to help them learn the truth?
As one commentator said above, these events are what you make of them. Maybe we need an attitude change?
This was the beginning of the end for us in modern church youth ministry. We just couldn’t ye-haa all of the quasi-political programs the church wanted us to stand behind. We also were at loggerheads with the SP, some parents, and even some of our teens over things like “Evangelism Explosion” and “The Silver Ring Thing” abstinence program. If we could get back to true, real discipleship instead of programs that run outside the church itself it would be far easier to “buy into” true local expressions of those ideas, but when you’re involved nationally you have to give assent to what the movement stands for as a whole. Truly a conundrum for the youth pastor with integrity.
Adam,
Much of what your write resonates with me. I too attended a group of adults who planned SYATP and used phrases like “get God back into school” and “taking a stand” or “this generation.” In fact one of the last meeting’s I was at they spent 30 minutes talking about making a T-Shirt and what color they should be and that the logo should have J on it and that it should be over the heart. None of what they said resonates with me.
I continued to attend those meetings and SYATP because much like the prophets you’ve got to call from within, not from the outside. Now I also recognize the fact that it’s easier to give birth than to raise the dead. One of the biggest things I feel that I can do for my kids is to remove those obstacles that I had to overcome from Sunday School classes and bible studies I was involved in as a teenager. I do that by having honest conversations with them like the one that you had.
I’m in a predicament now where a youth pastor in the community is trying to organize a big trip to Aquire The Fire (ATF for you veterans). Do I say no my kids aren’t going, tell them about and don’t go myself, go and try to have conversations with them about why this isn’t the faith that we have…….I don’t know yet.
Thanks for all of your comments on this post – some good conversation here and I thought I’d just respond to a few of your comments:
@Brandon, thanks for taking the time to comment on my post – it’s been awhile since we’ve hung out in Idaho at camp…unfortunately, we’re just not going to agree on this issue. You quoted 1 Timothy 2.1-7, but I’m not sure what it has to do with me not wanting to pray with students to convert their friends. The scripture says that God “desires all people to be saved” – it doesn’t say anything about how that comes about. It doesn’t say that we need to be the ones that do the converting, nor that we should be doing that…
@James – you ask a good question. No, I don’t think you are truly loving your neighbor is your sole intent is to convert them. That’s not love – that’s bait and switch tactics.
@Wesley – I’d be just fine if youth or parents saw this blog post – I’ve explained it already to the youth group. It’s not that I don’t support their desire to pray for their friends, but I’d want to have a conversation with them about why they feel the need to pray for their friends’ conversion…rather than praying for other things in their friends’ lives.
Again, @Brandon, as for the “condemnation with a kind face” – we’re just coming from very different places. As I’m sure my faith doesn’t make much sense to you, I don’t see these type of statements (not to mention the statements you made about Hindus on Facebook) as being consistent with who I believe God to be, or how I think God works in the world.
@Chip – yah man. Acquire the Fire. There are some folks who I know think students should go to that too….I just can’t do it. I can’t go to anything that features Ron Luce as the head speaker….Acquire the Fire, Battle Cry….seriously. The posters for Acquire the Fire show a picture of Jesus walking down some railroad tracks with “Here Comes Trouble” as the slogan.
Really…? That’s what we want kids to think about Jesus…? Here comes trouble…?
we’re just coming from very different places
I know. I’m coming at this from the Bible. You’re coming at it from anywhere but.
From reading this blog for a while, I understand your faith just fine. Your faith is a rejection of Christ. God is who He reveals Himself to be in His Word. If that is not who you believe God is, then you have rejected God and replaced him with an idol of your own imagination.
The scripture says that God “desires all people to be saved” – it doesn’t say anything about how that comes about.
Did you read the passage?
2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people
why?
because Goddesires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We are to pray for the conversion of all kinds of people because God desires the conversion of all kinds of people.
It doesn’t say that we need to be the ones that do the converting, nor that we should be doing that
My apologies for assuming you have read the rest of your Bible. Austin already mentioned the Great Commission.
Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
You would do well to consider Matthew 7 as well:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
My tone will sound harsh to you and your readers, but its an issue worth being harsh about. You need to stop masquerading your religion as Christianity.
I suppose these are the folks who get all into the “Country First” slogan. We loves our idols, we does.
Well said Brandon.
Adam, I might suggest you look at Joseph Fletcher’s book ‘Situation Ethics’. Particularly the chapters about the Love Ethic and what a truly loving act actually is.
Seriously? SYATP is the hill you want to die on in your first year of youth ministry? Interesting.
Wow Brandon….you’re taking this a bit too far buddy. I’ve read this blog for a while. You could call some of his theology as liberal maybe, but to say he has denied Christ would mean you have been inside his heart. Come on man.
Tyler,
In response to the false teachers in his day, the Apostle Paul said:
Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Would you also criticize Paul because he hadn’t “been inside their hearts”?
Consider this in light of Adam’s Gospel:
http://pomomusings.com/2007/03/09/re-what-is-the-gospel/
I’m less interested in encouraging my youth to display public piety by praying around a national symbol for all to see. I’d much rather spend my time helping them to see that following Christ means helping the poor, the oppressed, the forgotten and the marginalized. Seems like those might be the kinds of things Jesus would do…Just sayin’.
Yeah, this is going to be controversial!
I am the pastor of a youth church in Lawton, Oklahoma, named FUEL. I haven’t read every single post here, but I am grasping the general idea. It seems that the consesus here feels that there is an “us” vs. “them” dynamic to SYATP prayer circles in public high schools across the US.
What is the purpose of SYATP? The website is fairly specific that it is a student led event revolving around public prayer around the flagpole at school one Wednesday morning a year. There are several quesetion that lead to some premises on which I will comment.
1. In the passage in Matthew 6:5-6, where Jesus spoke about public prayer, was He comdemning public prayer or a condition of the heart?
A good question, but completely irrelavent to the discussion here. Of course, Jesus was not condemning public prayer, because not a few verses later, when asked how to pray, Jesus said . . . Enough said! Jesus didn’t say, “pray like this,” then lower His head and pray a silent prayer. In fact, there is NOT ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of silent prayer ANYWHERE in the Bible, that I can find. There is certainly “meditating” on the Lord, but I can’t find “silent prayer” anywhere. Looks like something man invented to substitute for thoughtful, spiritual, substantial communication to the Lord. This leads me to my next question.
2. Why should Christians quietly serve and keep their spirituality to themselves?
Certainly, they should not. Did Jesus just quietly serve? Nope. Jesus preached and taught about the Kingdom of God–He was not a subtle guy. Did Jesus keep his spirituality to Himself? Again, nope! Jesus didn’t do that either. He was outspoken, gentle when necessary, tough when necessary, talkative, etc.
Jesus certainly prayed privately. No question about it. But, He also prayed publicly. If He hadn’t, we wouldn’t have record of His prayers.
Folks, serving others is certainly Christlike. However, serving is NOT a substitute for witnessing and evangelizing. I see SYATP as part and parcel to making a public statement that identifies Christians. One of the outcomes of SYATP is certainly persecution. However, persecution usually does not follow non-Christians, but Christians. And, just for the record, just because a person “feels” left out or persecuted because he is not a Christian does not force Christians to be silent or subtle.
I Cor. 1:18 declares “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Matt. 10:34-39 declares, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”
The facts illustrated here are pretty straightforward: 1) people who are not Christians DON’T WANT to hear the gospel or SEE anyone’s Christianity; and 2) just BELIEVING in Jesus will bring a person persecution, because believing (faith) is ALWAYS accompanied by corresponding action (James 2:18). In this country, EVERYONE has the right to be offended–this includes non-Christians being offended by the public faith of Christians.
3. Where does silent faith come from?
Well, this question is pretty hard. Those who believe the US “Declaration of Independence” understand that God is the giver of the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Those who misunderstand our government’s role probably view the GOVERNMENT as the giver of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
We have been taught–in fact, as a former public school employee, it has been DRILLED INTO US, that our faith (especially Christianity) is to be kept private, in the classroom, silent. It ought to be appalling to us that the rights our own founding document assigns to God, and God alone, have been taken away by the government, slowly, but surely.
SYATP seems to cut to the heart of those who hold TODAY’S understanding of the separation of church and state to be a truthful ideal. Guess what: it’s not truthful!
There is NO SUCH THING as silent faith in the Bible. In China, faith public is faith persecuted. In the Middle East, faith public is faith persecuted. In North Africa, faith public is faith persecuted. In the US, faith public is rare. Revelation 2 and 3 declare 7 times, “to him who overcomes” there will be life, rewards, and reception in Heaven. Our Christianity in the US has become SO compromised–so lukewarm and manipulated, it is–I believe–of no use at all to God.
I agree with some of you that SYATP is ineffective in its singularity and scope, however, if not SYATP, then what?
I’m truly amazed that people are so concerned about “spreading God’s mercy” and “showing God’s love” when they are unwilling to preach God’s gospel, to conduct their lives in true holiness, to manifest His glory, to utilize His gifts, or to even acknowledge their faith publicly.
Jesus died naked in public. I wonder how many “Christians,” around a flagpole or not, would be willing to be persecuted to that extent for Christ’s sake?
We need prayer circles in the hallways, initiated by students, with a clear evangelical purpose–yes, prayer, but evangelical prayer for the purpose of demonstrating Christ’s love and preaching His gospel. Students need to be bold, strong, and spiritual in their whole academic lives!
God help our COMPROMISED Christianity!
God bless you.
Al Christian, Pastor
FUEL, Inc.
Lawton, OK
I remember the first time see you at the pole was brought up…at the youth evangelism conference Dallas Texas 1989…a event sponsored by the Baptist general convention of Texas and the idea was shared about place on campus to pray for lost friends. I went the first one we had at our college that fall. And we had some students there who had come out of the youth ministry that came up with the idea. We got together in a park on campus (there was no flag around) and prayed together. No hype…just believers asking God to change hearts. That’s what is started as. Matt 6:5 is clear…”and when you pray…do not be like the hypocrites for they love to be standing in the synagogues and on the street corners seen by men. I tell you the truth they have received their reward in full. But when you pray go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father who is unseen. Then you’re Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” It also mentions the “babbling” we hear from so many Christians. Talk is cheap. One day out of the year amounts to nothing if the rest of the time we don’t love people in our school. Us vs them? Please. That’s the message we want to send? I didn’t do STATP pole either. Why? I challenged my students to do an accountability and prayer group once a week. Being consistent is more like Jesus. And if you have to stand around a flag pole to show you’re a Christian then you might want to check your heart because you have bigger issues. For a lot of youth guys(and I don’t mean everyone) SYATP has become another youth ministry “hype fest”….get a lot of people there…get them saved…never disciple them. Get your stats going…maybe even start a youth church…what ever that is.
eric
lowly uncool youth “minister”
regular church
nocona, tx
Just some guarded responses:
Eric wrote:
I remember the first time see you at the pole was brought up . . . there was no flag around . . .
Apparently, there is something negative I am misunderstanding regarding prayer near a flag. What’s so bad about it again? Is it wrong to pray for our nation, its leaders, and its future? Is it wrong to look at the 13 stripes and recall the Christian heritage of the US? Or to note the diversity of the fifty states represented in 50 stars? It’s quite the liberal (which I am not) who seems to be ready and willing to dismiss some symbols of his country, while clinging to others.
You don’t want to pray around a flagpole? Fine. What about spending the US’ currency? It’s just a symbol as well! Oh, I know, “you can’t help it!” Give me a break here, sir (and all the others stating or implying that praying around a flag is somehow a bad thing). The very same right that protects our ability to pray around the flag is the same right that protects your ability to burn the flag. Be dismissive of prayer around the flagpole, if you like. However, this is not really about the flag–it’s about the heart.
Eric wrote:
Matt 6:5 is clear…”and when you pray…do not be like the hypocrites for they love to be standing in the synagogues and on the street corners seen by men. I tell you the truth they have received their reward in full. But when you pray go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father who is unseen. Then you’re Father who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”
Indeed, you are right, sir. Matt. 6:5 is clear WHEN YOU PLACE IT IN CONTEXT. Jesus was certainly addressing a problem here, but it was not public prayer. It was hypocritical prayer He was addressing. The Pharisees prayers did not match up with their lives–that was certainly a problem at the time–it’s certainly a problem now. In fact, now, it’s worse! I don’t see a whole lot of people praying around the flagpole that Wednesday who wouldn’t immediately be disqualified from entry into Heaven should they die right at that moment (Heaven forbid)!
Although I disagree with your uncontextual cursory understanding of Matt. 6:5, I agree that hypocritical prayer is a problem that definitely arises out of SYATP prayer circles. Does that trump the purpose of the prayers? Should that stop people from making public prayers? Not at all! What Jesus was warning about had to do with the particular glory or credit associated with a particular priest or Pharisee because of the eloquence or length of his prayer. In fact (if you had read my entire post), you would have discovered that this is a great example of Jesus MAKING the point that you are denying He made!
A few verses later, Jesus taught the disciples how to pray. And, he said . . . words! He didn’t just bow His head in a silent prayer and then say, “Amen.” Public prayer, out loud, is the only type I can find in the Bible. I challenge you to come up with some better theology on prayer, if you can find some.
Eric wrote:
It also mentions the “babbling” we hear from so many Christians.
I’m not sure what you mean, here. Are your making a reference to tongues? I am also a Pentecostal–which means I speak with tongues. One of the major offenses my teens on the public school campus is constantly dealing with non-Christian components: sexual innuendo, profanity, drugs, deception, etc. I’m certainly not saying Christian teens are perfect–far from it! However, there are things that “offend” them, just like there are things about Christianity that “offend” non-Christians. Welcome to the USA! Here, you have the RIGHT to be OFFENDED! Fortunately, you don’t have the right to inhibit someone’s free speech or freedom to practice their faith.
Now, whether “babbling” refers to the ongoing musings of Christians about their faith, or ecstatic utterances in other tongues, one simple fact remains: as long as non-Christians are permitted to use profanity in a school hallway, Christians ought to pray out loud in every corner of the school–in tongues! I get criticized often for stating that because of the I Cor. 14 passage from Paul about always needing an interpretation. However, I would remind you that there were no interpretations of the tongues in the book of Acts. People were baptized with the Spirit, they spoke (prayed) in tongues, that’s it.
Some say, “That kind of stuff freaks me out.” I would point out that the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (I Cor. 1:18). If you’re freaked out by tongues, you’re likely to be freaked out by the cross. The problem, Eric, is that people have not heard enough “babblings” of this type from Christians and need to hear more. People should be accustomed to the great things God is doing, not afraid of them.
Eric wrote:
Talk is cheap. One day out of the year amounts to nothing if the rest of the time we don’t love people in our school. Us vs them? Please. That’s the message we want to send? I didn’t do STATP pole either. Why? I challenged my students to do an accountability and prayer group once a week. Being consistent is more like Jesus.
I mostly agree with this, actually. Talk is definitely cheap, but not free. Your talk is one of those actions that does indeed set you apart as a Christian. I agree with you that one day a year is not nearly enough! I believe we need prayer circles in hallways every school morning, with emphasis on prayer, worship, and preaching the gospel.
Being consistent certainly is a good thing. However, God would rather have consistency of faith and repentance than consistency in attendance at a weekly “accountability and prayer group.” Nothing wrong with accountability, except most undiscipled teenagers have no idea what that is or how it operates. And even less understand the purposes of prayer. I hope there is much discipleship accompanying your anti-SYATP rhetoric at “regular church.”
Eric wrote:
And if you have to stand around a flag pole to show you’re a Christian then you might want to check your heart because you have bigger issues.”
I agree. It’s an evangelistic thrust, sir. An evangelistic thrust. This is an opportunity for Christians to be unafraid to meet and pray with Christian friends in public, to demonstrate their faith in an environment where faith is unwelcome. Flagpole prayer is not required as a work of faith in the Bible–repentance is. That would certainly be a “bigger issue” for most people. And, by the way, the problem is that we always “check our heart” instead of trusting the witness of the Holy Spirit and proving our faith by our actions.
Jeremiah 17:9 declares, “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”
Stop telling teenagers to trust their hearts, sir. Sounds like a Disney movie! We have to trust the Word of God, the witness of the Holy Spirit, and actions that prove our faith (James 1).
Finally, Eric wrote:
For a lot of youth guys(and I don’t mean everyone) SYATP has become another youth ministry “hype fest”….get a lot of people there…get them saved…never disciple them. Get your stats going…maybe even start a youth church…what ever that is.
I mostly agree with this, indeed. I don’t like a lot of hype, but I think SYATP could be worked into something much more agressive in evangelism. It is horrible to “throw the baby out with the bathwater,” as it were. Why bash SYATP instead of building teenagers up so that they WILL NOT be hypocrites to their private lives as they pray in public at school?
Finally, I didn’t start FUEL YOUTH CHURCH out of SYATP or Southern Baptist means, sir. And I didn’t become a pastor to push through some agenda. Churches in our area are not reaching teenagers effectively. The biggest one in our area uses secular music, secular movies, programmatic manipulation, and compromised leadership to gather a large crowd. That’s pretty much the extent of it–it’s a crowd. There is some opportunity for discipleship there, but few take advantage of it. Fact is, there is very little here for youth and young adults, and the Lord called and raised up my wife and me to start a ministry that reaches that demographic. We do not employ secular handling to accomplish biblical purposes.
I know the above remark was intended to be a dig. However, you obviously have no idea what a youth church even is. It’d probably be a good idea to get familiar with stuff before you attempt to insult others. Furthermore, we receive alot of criticism in our town here for NOT being Baptist or using a Baptist get-together model. We do not consider people brothers and sisters who “say” their Christians, but do not live like Christians. We also do not believe in any heretical, unprovable doctrines that are not in the Bible (i.e. Once Saved Always Saved).
You ought to check it out at 4fuel.org. No offense, sir. Just trying to answer the above.
God bless you!
Al Christian, Pastor
FUEL, Inc.
Lawton, OK
Another guarded response…
The flag..
I was not trying to disrespect or run down praying pr praying at our flag. The area we met at for our SYATP when I was a college student was in a large area which had no flag or flagpole. It was the place we were designated to meet. I was merely telling you the circumstances of the first SYATP. Yes their was no pole…but the main thing was we got together and prayed.
Matthew 6:
So we have to pray in public to be real believers? Seems to me that Jesus spent a lot of time praying by himself….was it out loud? I’m sure the Pharisees liked the attention they received for being on the street corner. I will agree it is a heart matter.
Babbling..
I was referring to all the church speak we use….the constant babbling of how we talk and talk about God and there is no heart change. Once again talk is cheap and without the cross and the saving power of it….we got nothing. The tongues stuff does not “freak me out” and I would never ever disrespect my Pentecostal brothers and sisters. Even though some of them might call me a man with no freedom who is not “complete” cause I don’t speak in tongues. Its still a hear matter.
Anti SYATP and discipleship-
We disciple students here at regular church. I know it sounds impossible but we do. And we are making progress. The idea of walking with kids and teaching them to walk with Christ is not an easy task. We have then for only a few hours each week and they come from terrible family situations like a lot do these days. What I meant when I said “check your heart “is that being around the flag pole does not change you. Being a public prayer person does not mean that student is changed. How many times have we seen kids stand up and share “God changed me!” and we never see them again? Yes this happens in every church and denomination. I am not telling students to trust their hearts either. And if you think we are running a Disney movie ministry here at our church you are mistaken. We are teaching that being consistent and trusting God with EVERYTHING you have is the way. It does NOT mean it’s going to be easy and there is no easy way out. The heart is once again in need of the change only Christ brings. And I will say it again. if our Christian students are depending on SYATP and other public events to show they love God something is wrong.
Bashing-
I am not bashing SYATP. I wrote the original post to simply share why it was started. I am also not bashing you bro. I don’t know what youth church is. I have never read about one in the bible. I thought the church was made up of all kinds of believers? If it is reaching kids bro…you can count on me to be your number one fan. Don’t dog your fellow believers out though. Have you talked to these other guys about what they are doing? I will agree that the crowd stuff gets exposed sooner or later. We have some really recall great older people who help me with our student ministry. I could not do without their wisdom. I am sure you must have a lot of help from adults at FUEL. 400 students require a lot of work. If God called you to do it then get after it. And cut the Baptists little slack…you benefited from your trip to summer camp at falls creek.(didn’t think I would go to the website did you?)
Eric
Eric, my brother, I love ya! LOL. I obviously did not get what you were meaning on some of this. For the most part, I’ll have to say I agree with you! Our youth church does have lots of adults as a base–it’s not just youth under any circumstances. I love Falls Creek! Have to thank the good Baptist folks for that, I guess!
And, anyone who wants teens and kids to be truly discipled is certainly a friend of mine. I enjoy debating with you!
God bless you!
Al Christian, Pastor
FUEL, Inc.
Lawton, OK
al–
i enjoyed it as well my friend. go fight win bro!1
eric
you guys are nuts. BE BLESSED!
XD