The Princeton Seminary Legacy
May 21, 2008
This weekend Sarah and I both graduated from Princeton Theological Seminary - and it feels great to be done. I have learned a lot in the past four years, both about theology, ministry and myself. I’ve had some great friendships and great experiences both at Columbia and Princeton seminaries. I was looking forward to the graduation ceremony - I enjoy these types of events. I enjoy the pomp and circumstance and the chance to celebrate with friends and family. While the ceremony had its moments, and some great music, I couldn’t even begin to tell you what President Torrance was trying to say in his esoteric address (you can read it here). Perhaps it will make more sense when you read it, but the overwhelming response from speaking with other graduates, parents and others, was confusion.
However, there was something else I found even more irritating. Princeton held an Awards Breakfast this year for the first time - a chance for student recipients of awards to get together and be honored for their achievement. The speaker at the breakfast was a pastor from Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church, and a PTS trustee, and he delivered an address on the legacy of Princeton Seminary. He informed us that Princeton knew the three things we (the graduates) appreciated most about our seminary educational experience:
- Relationships with friends
- Relationships with our Field Ed. supervisors
- Relationships with professors
While I can see the first one being true for many, I think it’s pretty interesting to hear (from a Field Ed. supervisor) that Princeton thinks that is the second most memorable thing from our seminary experience.
However, his talk went on being very focused on what an amazing institution Princeton Seminary is; at one point he said something to the effect of “Wherever God is at work in the world, and the gospel is having amazing success - I believe you will find a Princeton Seminary grad.” But the last thing he said was even more unbelievable. The pastor went on to say, “Someday you’ll find yourself sitting in a circle, and the inevitable question will come up: ‘So, where did you go to seminary?’ And you will tell them you’re a Princeton Seminary graduate, and their eyes will get a little wider and you’ll find that they’re listening to you with a little bit more respect and authority. Not because of you - but because of where you come from - because of the legacy of all those who have come before you - because of Princeton Seminary.”
I just sat there. Seriously? “Their eyes will get a little wider and they’ll listen to you more because of where you come from? Is he really being serious? Has he MET anyone else from another seminary before, or had much interaction with them?” When I talk about being from Princeton to students from other PC(USA) seminaries, Princeton is often referred to as “oh, THAT school.” We are seen by some as pretentious, annoying, stuck on ourselves - basically, people assume that we think we are amazing. And the fact that we have the largest endowment of any other school probably doesn’t help.
While I have enjoyed my time here (for the most part), I certainly don’t think PTS is the most amazing place in the world. And it’s the attitude and ideas that this pastor was projecting to all of us that are the very reasons people from other schools think of Princeton Seminary as a pretentious place.
Tags: Graduation, Princeton-Seminary
Posted in Rants
Adam Walker Cleaveland: I am a 28 yr old 
May 21st, 2008 at 8:05 am
My eyes are a little wider right now….
I know that alums of every school have good reason to argue their school is the “best” (whatever that means) but to assume that everyone else would share that admittedly biased view is interesting.
For what it is worth, I have a better view of Princeton after being your classmate last year at Columbia.
I was interested to learn that the Holy Spirit has signed an exclusive endorsement deal with PTS. Damn. Wish I had known that before I spent three years at Columbia!
I am still going to live in eschatological hope that God is at work in the world in places that Princeton grads haven’t yet reached.
Peace,
Marci
Columbia Theological Seminary Class of 2008
May 21st, 2008 at 8:20 am
I was completely put off by the remarks at the breakfast as well. I’m glad to hear that I wasn’t the only one. It’s a sign of the inferiority complex that the seminary suffers because of its desire to be an academic institution rather than a place that prepares women and men for (humble, servant) ministry in the church. This was illustrated perfectly by the president’s lecture (speech? address? it sure wasn’t a sermon) which did nothing to inspire me to go into the church or the world or anywhere but out of the boredom of that chapel. But hey, we’re done. Congrats.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:32 am
wow: that’s a commencement address. I’m not sure that a commencement address was the right place to wax about the nature of public space. it reminds me of my high school graduation when our valedictorian referred to the “variegated fabric of our quilted humanity”. You could hear the eyes rolling across the auditorium.
May 21st, 2008 at 8:39 am
Adam wrote: “the fact that we have the largest endowment of any other school probably doesn’t help.”
*Ahem* “Endowment” envy?
May 21st, 2008 at 9:06 am
That’s hilarious.
Usually, when I ask someone where they went to seminary and they tell me Princeton, THEY are the one’s whose eyes get wider, for I’ve just reminded them that the ghost of Hodge walks the halls and that “nothing new will ever come from Princeton Seminary.”
Way to keep it in perspective, Adam.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:23 am
I think the guy who spoke at your breakfast may be the guy who did my admissions interview at Princeton. He had no time for me, just rattled off a list of questions and waited impatiently for me to stop talking. Completely turned off, I never bothered to finish my application.
The good news is I’ve found it to be the administration and not the students who come from Princeton that annoy the crap out of me. And Columbia certainly has those same annoying administrative idiots who would make the same claims about CTS!
Congratulations on being done! It is a great feeling!
Karen
May 21st, 2008 at 9:47 am
Good words, Adam. A PTS alum myself, as you know, I find that attitude to have been quite common among those of the generation represented there, but thankfully less common among those younger and more in touch.
On a side note, I think the awards breakfast was a good idea, though. It was always weird having the award recipients find out they won their awards from having their names printed in the commencement book and being asked to stand (and remain standing interminably while every name was read).
Regarding commencement addresses. I’ve noticed that there are two kinds. One, which seems to be more common among non-academic speakers who are brought in, sees commencement as an occasion, a time for inspiration and challenge. This, I think, is what most of us expect in a commencement address. The other, which seems to me almost invariably the kind of address delivered by academics, sees commencement as an occasion for an especially high profile academic lecture. Just another journal article in speech form, albeit one with an oddly dressed audience. The difference is the sense of occasion, and I’m sorry that you didn’t experience yours as having much of one.
But, as others have said, congratulations nonetheless. It’s a significant accomplishment. And as I trust they still say there at graduation, may your heart be held captive to the gospel of Christ. Or something like that.
p.s. Marci, you are surely an exceptionally gifted CTS graduate. :)
May 21st, 2008 at 10:41 am
I wish I had not settled and attended Austin Seminary. Great post. I think we all have mad biases fro the seminary we attend. I have a different opinion of APTS now as I leave than I did when I arrived.
The solution to all of this is that we all go to Fuller…
May 21st, 2008 at 11:12 am
Though I can’t claim to grasp entirely what the Prez has to say, I found his speech rather rich. As usual, of course, he does not define every word for those who may not have the sort of vocabulary he does (e.g., “feral” = “ferocious”), but that is because his speeches are meant to be read. He’s not only speaking for the graduating class of 2008, but also for the world of modern theology. I don’t view that as a weakness. I would much rather have a commencement address challenge me intellectually than offer a series of platitudes about how lovely my education is. Personally, I think our President’s attempts to speak on a high level ought to be received as the highest form of flattery a graduating class could hope to receive. I am sorry to hear it was not received as flattery, but as snobbery.
In reading the speech, I heard Dr. Torrance claim at least three things quite eloquently. They are three things that, not only might many people be surprised to hear from the President of a mainline theological institution, but that Princeton graduates ought to hear:
(1) The presumptive attitude that thinks all capitalist endeavors are inherently wicked is wrongheaded. Yes, even Adam Smith had good things to say. All the “liberation theologians” of Princeton might be surprised to know that, and I cannot believe it was a mistake that Dr. Torrance chose to cite the author of The Wealth of Nations for his ethical mouthpiece in the context of a mainline denomination presently influenced heavily by various purportedly Marxist ideals. (’To act truly as moral agents, Adam Smith argued that we need to have recourse to what he called “the impartial spectator.” We forget that at our peril, whether we are locked into an undignified presidential wrangle, whether we are invading Iraq, whether we are simply faculty resisting external assessment, or whether we are a graduate suffused with entitlement. These are all places on the same spectrum of a broader nativism.’)
(2) PTS graduates, if they have learned nothing else, ought to understand that they are not entitled to anything. They aren’t entitled to jobs, to friends, to money, etc. And they aren’t entitled to public space. This second claim has real implications for those who read and write blogs, especially blogs that have to do with Christian theology. There are no guarantees about putting information in public. Just because something is published does not make it right or good or true or beautiful. And I think that is a message that Dr. Torrance was shrewd to make in today’s day and age, even if he made it with such quiet pronunciation.
and (3)Christian ministers are called to preach the truth in love. Dr. Torrance’s charge to uphold the tension of confessional hospitality as a means toward following Paul’s model of pastoral complexity is important and interesting. His first speech at the seminary in my memory — I believe it was our first academic convocation — called for an embodiment of both Christ’s grace and his truth (John 1). Those words marked me then for their perception of the difficulty inherent in Christian discipleship. These words about what it means to be both confessional and hospitable in a pluralist society are equally perceptive and crucial. To close such a speech by charging graduates to take on ministry with a ferocious appetite for Pauline complexity is a beautifully pastoral thing to do. And in a denomination of waxing relativism and waning adherence to confessional orthodoxy, it is a charge delivered perfectly on balance. (’Ministry is, at the very least, to do with speaking the words of God in public. Only naïve people are nativist, wrapped in their parochialism as if with a garment. You, our new graduates, are not such as these. St. Paul gives us one model for complexity…. Be feral, and may God bless all of you.’)
In conclusion, it ought to be clear that if we pay attention to what the President had to say, rather than quickly dismiss it for its rhetorical gravity and complexity, we might be able to see that his words dissuade us from adopting the attitude of superiority and entitlement of the unnamed trustee. Although, I must say, is it really so bad to be proud of where you received your education? Isn’t there a place in all of this for a sense of accomplishment and joy? I certainly hope there is, because I have no intention of going through life with the whip of false humility to my back. But I do understand your concern, Adam, and I think that if the individual mentioned were addressed with it, he would likely immediately respond by apologizing, if not by repenting, especially if he listened carefully to Dr. Torrance’s 2008 commencement speech.
May 21st, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Congrats to you and your wife. I am only 4 years away…………haha. that is forever.
May 21st, 2008 at 3:40 pm
adam,
first of all…congratulations.
second…i couldn’t help but comment. having entered pts in 1992 [graduated in '97] and doing/attempting life and ministry since then - here, there, and everywhere - i nearly spit out my coffee when i read your summation of the awards breakfast.
pts is a solid institution. god is good and gracious and it will be used but “eyes getting wider?” umm, no.
honestly, i get this response more: “who the f**k cares?” and i’m serious.
May 21st, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Wow.
As one who happily turned down some big bucks at PTS in favor of attending Columbia Seminary, I can say that the PTS attitude was one of the main factors. I had the strange experience, while visiting, of a professor taking me to his class and asking all the students to share the reasons I should attend Princeton. One said, “Because you can tell everyone you went to Princeton.” Several heads around the room nodded. That’s not a seminary community to which I felt called.
It’s an attitude that at least gets lots of PR, and therefore draws a particular type of student. Not everyone at PTS is pretentious, but everyone at PTS has to deal with a community in which some are.
In terms of “eyes getting wider,” I’ve heard of several call committees being wary of PTS grads for just this attitude.
Now if I were speaking to a call committee, I would recommend Adam Walker Cleaveland without any reservations whatsoever.
Great stuff, Adam. Congrats.
A Wee Blether
May 21st, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Not everyone at PTS is pretentious, but everyone at PTS has to deal with a community in which some are.
One could write this sentence and substitute the word SEMINARY for the letters PTS. It’s a truism: theology students have a knack for pretense. May God rid us of God!!
May 21st, 2008 at 10:20 pm
People get that same eyes getting wider look when I mention I went to Moody Bible Institute. It is only for another reason.
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:17 am
Adam,
Congrats again on graduation. For the record, my eyes get wider just thinking about how you graduated from Princeton. I hope one day to meet you in person so you can see my oddly large optical organs.
May 22nd, 2008 at 6:31 am
Quite frankly, and whether the students are pretentious or not, PTS is the most storied and well regarded Presbyterian seminary in our country, and currently is probably in the top five seminaries in terms of faculty. I don’t know that I’d go on and on talking about it, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:02 pm
I live in Princeton, am a pre-seminarian, and I stumbled across your blog. I work at a cafe in town which students from the seminary frequent religiously (pun completely intended). I’ve met a couple that I adore, but I’ve met/overheard/served even more that are rude, over-serious and rather obnoxious. It’s ignorant and unfair to paint with broad strokes, and I realize the fallacy, but after interacting with the fistful of seminarians that rubbed me the wrong way from Princeton, it makes me ever more aware of how theology can easily divorce itself from compassion and reality.
May 22nd, 2008 at 2:08 pm
I heard very similar phrases at the Harvard Div. School open house, turning me off a bit and the reason I’m going to YDS this fall. It felt strange to say the best thing about the school was that when you have the “Harvard” name, you’ll always have a job.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Perhaps one of the issues at stake here (for good and/or for bad) is that the M.Div is available both to students entering the ministry and also to students planning on going on to further academic study (and not the ministry). ELCA seminaries don’t admit non-ordination track students to their M.Div programs (which has its benefits and drawbacks).
So the question might be, “How successfully is PTS living in the tension of being both a place to raise up pastors and a place to raise up academics?” This is a tension I felt during my years there, from both the school and students alike. Unfortunately, in the academic world, prestige and name are far more important than they probably should be. I’m not sure that people care so much about these things in ministry circles. Given the mix of vocational aspirations that PTS attempts encourage, it seems that the legacy issue is a symptom of trying to be academically strong and competitive in both ministry and academic circles.
I’d say that PTS errs on the side of academic theology in the same way that the Lutheran seminary I spent time at errs on the side of pastoral formation. It might just be too hard to find a middle ground, I’m not sure. For me, I appreciate my time at both seminaries - I feel that I have a fantastic grounding in theological knowledge and a solid development in pastoral ministry thanks to the strengths/emphases of each school.
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I was just talking to one of my profs yesterday, and i told him that if I wasn’t at Mars Hill Graduate School then I probably would be at Princeton. I’ve heard such good things.
May 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
Melissa has a worthwhile point.
May 24th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Hey Adam, I haven’t formally met you, but I enjoy reading your blog and the Presbymergent blog as well. This is an interesting reflection you wrote about PTSEM. I’m finishing my M.Div at Fuller this quarter and my family and I (wife and 2 daughters) are heading to Princeton in the fall, as I will be doing a ThM in Preaching. I like reading your blog because it helps me become more familiar with Princeton, the East Coast, etc. I’ve been a So Cal guy my whole life, from infancy to Westmont to Fuller, and so I’m stepping into a quite an unknown environment. Our plans are to drive across country with whatever we can fit in the Outback (which isn’t much), and hopefully find cheap furniture there to fill the apartment. Does this sound plausible? Also, as a ThM student, I haven’t even been told yet if we will get housing, which has been kind of frustrating as we have already sold our house and I’ve had to announce my resignation of youth ministry position after five years. Are you aware of the possibilities of us being denied housing (there’s no way we could afford living in an apartment in Princeton)? Thanks for the help.
May 28th, 2008 at 5:05 am
Hi Adam,
We’ve never met, but I’ve been reading your blog on and off for years. Thanks a lot. I graduated twice from Prof Torrance’s home of Aberdeen (’99 BD, ‘03 PhD) and once from PTS (’00, ThM), so I’m not surprised about what you say.
Prof Torrance has many strengths, but he is not the kind of person who seems able to connect with ordinary people. Even after reading his remarks several times, it’s not clear what he’s saying. That is his personality. Period. He should go to the speech department for serious assistance.
As for Princeton being pretentious, of course it is. Part of that is endowment, part of it is quality faculty, part of it is the student body. But I always felt that a huge part of the “Princeton Pretentiousness” is simply Princeton itself. If the seminary could be towed to the middle of Nevada somewhere and left there it would mean much less and would have to strive to be much more. The name “Princeton” is its greatest opportunity, but also its greatest problem.
Anyway, congratulations on graduating to you both.
Philip
June 5th, 2008 at 11:52 am
Hey, congratulations!
You have repped the school well. I have loved following your journey and haven’t found it pretentious. If I could do it all over again, adamwc style might not be a bad way to go! After 4 years @ Fuller, I have non-endowment sized debt.
Sounds like you two have a bit of an adventure ahead. My prayers are with ya’ll. I look forward to reading Pomomusings.com: Book Two!
August 12th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Interesting to read you post on graduation as I am getting ready to enter the doors of PTS in a month. . .
It will be intriguing to see if some of my own impressions to far from my interactions with various elements of the PTS community will be validated or smashed after I join the fray.