Just recently I’ve been reading a new blog, The Cutting Truth. I’m not sure if it’s a current/previous student of Princeton Seminary, but the author makes some references to PTS, so there may be a connection. The author writes some really biting critiques of seminary, the church and other issues. Check it out – and read the most recent entry about the Doctor of Ministry degree.
I thought it was pretty hilarious. The D.Min tends to be the brunt of some jokes every now and then. I know that during my first year at Princeton, as some of us were beginning to feel the intensity of the academic pressure and others were fearing they’d never get into a Ph.D program – there were those of who’d smile and say, “D.Min baby – go for the D.Min.” The author of the post writes about how the D.Min helps financially-struggling seminaries pull in more cash, and how it enables pastors to finally be able to get that raise they’ve wanted, because they’re “Dr. Pastor” now. Here is a quote from the article:
“After three quick, easy, study-lite years, the pastor has attained his Doctor of Ministry degree. His doctorate degree. That degree gives the pastor a tremendous amount of respect now. He is Dr. Pastor now, a real somebody. More importantly, there is tremendous upside attached to his new title, and the ceiling on his earning potential has just been lifted. Dr. Pastor has clout now, or Dr. Rev. Pastor, if you will. Suffice it to say, he has respect, money, and position.”
I’ve often thought it would be a nice way, a quick and easy way, to get the “Dr.” prefix to my name. The Rev. Dr. Adam Walker Cleaveland. It just sounds good. Any readers have D.Min degrees? What was your experience? Any out there planning on getting the illustrious Doctor of Ministry degree?
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Adam,
Unfortunately, I think the comments about the D.Min. are stereotypes based (as many stereotypes) in some reality. There are academic/hard D.Min. programs and there are easy/short ones… on down to probably ordering on online for $29.99. In fact, I googled for online Ph.D. degrees, and quickly found one for $500. I’m sure with some searching, one could get an even better deal.
With all that said, it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush stroke. I am in the 6th year of working on a D.Min. in the area of theology and worship. My first four years were spent taking 8 courses (2/yr), each with 30-35 hrs. of class-time 2000+ pgs. of reading and a 30-50 pg. paper. I am now about 2/3 through a 450 pg. “project” (technically a dissertation is what you write for a Ph.D.). As with any degree, it is what you make of it. I am not doing it for a higher salary or for recognition… I’m doing it in an area in which I was already doing advanced study, and in which I am engaged in ministry.
Ideally, the distinction between Ph.D. and D.Min. is the same as that between a medical research Ph.D. and a M.D. One is an academic degree for teaching, the other a professional degree for application in the field. The D.Min. is advanced study in the area of Christian ministry for those working in the field. I’ve been pleased and it has been the right choice for me. [And it's been a workout to get done while being a solo pastor of a 250-member church. It is definitely not a walk in the park.] I would hope that the doctoral project will be publishable when I’m done, but if not, I definitely will use the content in the seminars and conferences I’m involved with regionally.
In God’s grace,
Robert Austell
I’ve been contemplating a D.Min. degree for the past year. I well remember the D.Min. vs. Ph.D. discussions at PTS. I know some people in the the Ph.D. program there would say that a D.Min. is nothing but a glorified Th.M. Having also done a Th.M at PTS, and knowing people who are doing their D.Min. there, I would disagree with that – clearly the D.Min. is a different level of study. The Th.M. program was not as challenging as I hoped, more like an extra year of seminary of an M.Div. (but nonetheless, I’m glad that I did it).
In regards to the article you linked, I’m sure that there are pastors who earn the D.Min just so that they can have the prestige of putting the “Dr.” in front of their name and possibly get a raise (although in Wyoming people aren’t so impressed with degrees and titles). And I’m sure there are seminaries who use the D.Min. program as a cash cow and the admission requirements are minimal – just as there are with some undergrad, master’s, and Ph.D. programs. However, every person I know who has gotten a D.Min. has done so for reasons of professional development and to be a better servant to the congregation they are serving. Entrance into to the programs to which they applied – PTS and Austin – certainly wasn’t a formality, and I know some who have gotten turned down. They have worked hard and poured themselves into the program. Plus, like Robert said above, the challenges can’t be underestimated of doing a D.Min. while being a pastor. That’s one of the main reasons that I’m hesitating applying for a D.Min. program.
Adam,
As one with a Ph.D. — I can say that having a Dr. by one’s name doesn’t assure you of a big raise (whether that Dr. is of the Ph.D. variety or the D.Min. variety).
I think too that like every degree program they run the gamut –from the scholarly to the not so scholarly. A D.Min is a professional degree, intended to encourage and endorse one’s continuing educatno. I know that in the early days of these degree programs there was a debate as to whether one should go right on through past the M.Div. and complete a D.Min. They were largely in residence programs that didn’t fit the life of a serving pastor. Most D.Mins today are for pastors in ministry and thus aren’t “residential.”
My advice to anyone thinking of doing a doctorate of any kind — don’t do it for the prestige. I’ve learned over the past 9 years of pastoral ministry — after being more an academic prior to that — that my Dr. means very little in the actual work of the ministry. Hopefully what a D.Min. will foster is a life-long pursuit of learning. Whether one has a D.Min., a Ph.D. or an M.Div — indeed whether one only has a BA — it should not be said that the copyright date of the most recent book in your library is the same as your graduation date. You don’t have to read as much as I do, but you must continue reading!!!
Adam – long time no read.
I think Robert’s dead on here. And the author of the Cutting Truth needs to realize, as you do, that Rev comes BEFORE Dr. – which in my opinion, means that the prestige is attached to the Rev.
IF you’re doing a DMin for salary or the title – you’re in the WRONG line of work. And frankly, you’re probably a pretentious idiot who no one wants preaching and counseling anyway. But I have NO desire to get a Phd. But I don’t want to stop reading & studying. What’s left for a person like me, who wants to pastor and not be a professor, but keep studying and learning is the DMin. And just like any degree, it’s what you make of it. Heck, there are a ton of people who graduated with the same degree I did (and you will) – and I’ll bet most of them made more on the academic side of their’s than I did. But no one looks at that, it’s just the letters. So, an academically “light” degree may be looked down on by some, but the actual value varies – you can learn alot outside the classroom too, right?
I happened to be thinking about getting my Dmin from a school in a warehouse, that includes soccer moms among it’s students…
I remember the pastor at the church I served in seminary telling me not to get a DMin but to go for a PhD. His reasoning: (1) You’re smart and you can finish a PhD
(2) You can’t use a DMin for much other than a title in church work or a placemat
Interestingly, he had a DMin! The reality in a world where education is more and more expected is that more people will want a doctorate. Most universities aren’t going to let you teach witha DMin (my seminiary has only one faculty member with a DMin-the rest PhDs). I think the days of a doctorate being a doctorate are behind us becasue so many people know the difference between a Phd, EdD, PsyD and DMin. A person can become a Psycholigst with a PhD or a PsyD but the perception of the PsyD being a ‘cop out’ degree because of it’s lack of a dissertation is strong.
In the little (and I mean very little-about 8 schools) reserach I’ve done I found that it was MUCH easier to get financial aid in the form of scholarships (as opposed to loans) when working on a PhD instead of a DMin.
In response to Bridget’s comment… I agree, if you want to go teach in a college or graduate school setting, a Ph.D. is the way to go. The point of a D.Min. (what is meant by a “professional degree”) is that one presses in deeply into the context of ministry in the church (or mission or hospital). Most D.Min. topics are grounded in the local context of that particular pastor. e.g. topics like: church planting in urban Atlanta, Christian education practices in ESL contexts, etc… The point is not to prepare to teach a subject (unless it’s that particular context), but to deepen present ministry. So, many programs focus on preaching or leadership or counseling or missions… things specifically set in the context of parish ministry. The M.D./medical Ph.D. distinction is still helpful to me. One trains people to do medicine, the other to research and teach medicine and advance the field. I think the distinction is similar with the D.Min. and religious Ph.D.
It seems a bit difficult to discuss in the abstract (that is, abstracted from what you’d like to do, which specific programs your discussing, etc.). To complicate matters furthers, you can also get a Th.D.
I’m about to finish my undergrad and I’m looking at going into ministry so I’m thinkn to myself “where can I sign up?” Of course I have to be smart though, I dont want to be OVERqualified. Thanks for the insightful post.
The comments about academic v. professional/practical are something to heed – and some programs are more intense, even within the same seminary!
I’m in a D.Ed.Min program – in a year with a 400 hour practicum and all it will entail (still developing it – on worship music and religious education), with three two-week intensives with about 1000+ pages of reading, monthly threaded conversations on the topics of the month. Total of 7 required courses, two electives, a practicum and a final project – over 4 years. While working fulltime and doing other things.
It is not fluff. I am not doing it for prestige. I am doing as a lifelong learner. And yeah, I am doing it, in some aspects, for the credentials and a way to bolster longer-term earning power As a single for 12 years women with two mostly grown kids, who will be working into her late 60′s/early 70′s by my estimations, and who has butted against the glass ceiling since gradutaing from college in the later 70′s – it won’t hurt the potential, it ain’t a magic potion – and the experience is to be in a learning community that values learning and one another – it is mostly to be more effectively prepared and energized to do what I am called to do.
The bottom line is do what God has called you to do. I am a D.Min. student at United Theological Seminary in Dayton and I found it to be an enhancement to the ministry God has called me to. I have successfully defended my dissertation and believe me, it wasn’t a cake walk. Also, I know 3 peers who graduated from United and they are teaching at seminaries and Christian colleges and universities because they have terminal degrees. So even with a D.Min., God will still open doors.
I took a D.Min a Boston University. I wanted to work on a Ph.D. but wasn’t willing to put my family through the sacrifice necessary for a residential degree. I actually did my class work in Boston but mostly did it in summers or during short terms. But I would very much like to teach. I’ve had more academic work published than most professors but that doesn’t matter. Without the Ph.D. you can’t get an interview. Reinhold Niebuhr or Karl Barth would be left out in the cold in the 21st century.
It certainly is true that some D.Min. degrees are “fluff” and shame on the seminaries or universities who allow that to happen.
Interesting read.
I am just finishing a D.Min. Matter of fact, as I type this, I am sitting here with specialty paper getting ready to print out my final binding copies.
Before I began the D.Min. program, I thought that it was a lite degree and was taking it to help me in the ministry. As I now finish the program, I can’t tell you how wrong I was.
I attended the School of Evangelism and Church Growth at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Before my first class, I submitted a 5 page book critique for a “reading” just to make sure I was doing it right. Please understand, I spent 15 hours on this 5 page critique. I edited it 3 times, my wife (who is an unbelievable proof-reader) proofed it, then I proofed it again, gave it back to her, and then proofed it again once after she gave it back to me. When I picked up the critique a week later, the professor had marked all over the paper and on the top was the phrase, “This is a good start.” I was mortified.
Over the next four years, I read over 3,000 pages PER SEMESTER, wrote NUMEROUS book critiques, research papers, etc. etc. We also had post-seminar work to accomplish in online forums with the professor and the rest of the cohort, including more reading of other books (not included in the above 3,000).
After all that was over, the project started. Two chapters of in-depth research, then after approval, 15 weeks of a project within the church. That project and its analysis made up two other chapters. Beyond all of that, I then had to go and defend the project. While my defense wasn’t that bad, there were a number of changes I had to make.
Now, at the end of this journey (and a month from beginning a Th.M. and hopefully a Ph.D. at another seminary), I can say that my D.Min in no way is a fluff degree.
With all that said, there are many fly-by-night programs, in many different fields. Find a program that is in a respected school, with respected professors in the field you want.
Then do it. It is a great Professional degree.
Tisk Tisk on most of you. It appears that most of you have made degrees an Idol. It is not about you but about doing God’s work. Stop talking about yourself and go out into the world and preach the good news. You don’t need a degree to do this, in fact all you need is faith. Degree’s are human made, I say throw them in the trash.
I did a D.Min., which led to doing the Ph.D. Doing the D.Min. led me to want to do more serious academic work. While doing the ph.D., though, I went back and finished the D.Min. shortly before finishing the Ph.D.
I have met people with D.Min degrees who did it for prestige, and I have also met some that I thought had no business in any graduate program, let alone a doctoral program. One of the biggest jerks I have met along my journey was a Princeton DMin who acted like he was the resident scholar in the denomination because of this “prestige.” He used to abuse students in the in-care process, including me. One time I pulled his dissertation while visiting the PTS library–it was a 60 page history of his own congregation, and on top of that it sucked. I was ready for the next time he decided to throw some theology at me (as a candidate for ordination) like some expert to be like, I know what the D stands for in your degree. He was also seriously academically misinformed about basic theology and facts about world religions–but it was because he had this degree and he carried himself a certain way he spoke with authority.
But I can say that I had DMin classes that were more work than my PhD classes and the difficult question of ‘where does theory hit the pavement’ is always relevant in the DMin classes. More often than not this question was laughable in the PhD.
The biggest difference between the two for me was the PhD comprehensvie exams, language exams, and the more serious dissertation that makes a clearly original academic contribution. You could do this kind of dissertation/project in a DMin, but more often it was taking some theory and putting it into practice in some project. But those projects also involved using social science and statistical methods for analyzing the data, too, and I have seen Psy.D dissertations in the social sciences which were not dissimilar. The DMin programs just don’t have the exams and the languages–but those were the biggest hurdles in the PhD program, at least for me.
Also, there was a study you can find on the internet of students in the DMin programs in the US in the late 1990s. One of the biggest findings was that the DMin acted as a ritual for mid-career pastors to return to seminary and be refreshed in their love of learning (whatever that might mean) to bring about new focus or excitement in the second half of a professional career. Being that this is the point of burnout for many, it has morphed into what was argued to be a much needed “ritual.” Those who earned a DMin usually changed jobs and had higher salaries within five years, but it isn’t necessarily BECAUSE of the degree but because of new-found focus and excitement to move on to something new. Take that however you want.
I have both a Th.D. and a D.Min. and neither one has helped me to secure a raise!
The quality of D.Min one gets depends on the university/school of divinity or theology one gets it. Programs, professors, and demands vary. There is no one set of standard for the D.Min. much like there is no one set standard for M.Div. The quality depends on the school program, faculty, and Church the school is affiliated with. There are easy D.Mins and hard D.Mins. You have to ask the person where he graduated from, look at the school progam, and then decide whether you have a world-class “Rev Dr.” in front of you =).
Something else to toss into the pot, some fields of study can’t as easily be followed through a PhD program. An example from my life would be combining training to be a C.P.E. supervisor with a doctoral program to further the study and learning in that specialty.
Hi William!
I just read your commentary and since I am interested in CPE doctoral level, what programs would you suggest? Is Regent a thinkable alternative?
I don’t know the ins and outs of the different programs. Sorry.
Which of these degrees comes complete with a “higher” calling from the Holy Spirit? Oh, almost forgot, we don’t have much need for a calling when we can just judge by titles.
We should be careful how much world we let into the ministry. No degree will ever determine how much the spirit chooses to work through a person.
No, but Spirit will flow through a vessel that is working in cooperation with him. And studies are part of spiritual discipline.
Daryl,
I know my friend Nicole who is a psychologist is living out the calling she received from God through the Holy Spirt. As are Mark and Nancy who teach in a seminary. Also Bob who teaches high school physics. We in the ministry need to be cautious when playing the “God (or Holy Spirit) card” that we don’t limit the intervening power of the Trinity to those of us who have been call to vocations within the church. Ideally all of us would be seeking the vocation God has chosen to us and therefore following the call of the Spirit. For many, that requires a PhD.
Daryl,
Scripture also says to study to show yourself approved. While that is not necessarily formalized study, it is foolish in my opinion to avoid the opportunities to learn from men and women of God that have gone before us. Higher Education in the realm of Christianity does just that, it enables us to explore the depth and breadth of our Christian heritage in many ways, including scripture, our belief about what is said in scripture (theoogy), how others have lived out that scripture (history/their testimony), and how we are to put that scripture into practice in our churches (pastoral theology, which is the essence of a D.Min).
It is just as wrong to assume that those who seek higher degrees are doing it out of a lack of calling, or to assume that people replace a call to ministry with a title when searching for candidates.
I do not believe that all D.Min. programs are fluff. I think that is too broad of a generalization. I know people who have D.Min degrees that teach and have taught at some of the most prestigious seminaries in the world. I think it is more about how God opens up the doors and about how you use not abuse the gift of having obtained the degree. I am finishing my M.Div degree and I have every intention of going on to United Theological Seminary in Dayton OH for my D.min degree and as a back up I am looking at Lincoln Christian College and Theological Seminary in Lincoln IL. I believe the Holy spirit is a key factor in our usefullness in ministry but one should examine themselves to determine why one is pursuing any theological education.
I agree with several others here including Robert. The D.Min. is not a “fluff” degree. It is a professional degree usually designed for those already in ministry. For those wishing to teach in a seminary or Bible college, then the D.Min. isn’t for them. If you’re going to be a pastor or engaged in missions work and need additional training beyond the M.Div., then the D.Min is a good choice. I just have to qualify that last statement by saying a D.Min. at a good school is a good choice. There are, as anyone knows, some very weak non-accredited programs out there too – so be careful when you look!
I’m currently in a secular M.S. program but am looking to change to a M.Min. program. I have no desire for an M.Div. but am considering pursuing a D.Min. after my masters degree. I think whether or not you get a Ph.D./Th.D. or a D.Min. depends on what you want to do with it. The Ph.D./Th.D. is designed for those wanting to teach Theology/Bible at the seminary or divinity school level or specific religion areas of secular institution. However above the practical aspects of the D.Min. it has significant teaching applications as well–just in different ways. Those who possess D.Min. are often hired by Christian/Bible colleges as well as training institutes to teach at the undergraduate level. Those with D.Min. are also often more qualified to teach in specialty ministry area such as counseling, family studies, organizational leadership, etc. Especially those with D.Min.’s and the academic work in areas like family studies and counseling can find opportunities at secular institutions at both the graduate and undergraduate level. So it’s really a question of what you want to do—teach theology, bible, etc. and you need a Ph.D. or Th.D.—teach counseling, family studies, or another practitioner related field a D.Min. would well serve you.
Also heres an additional note be very careful of where you get your D.Min. or Ph.D./Th.D. from—and I don’t mean using diploma mills—if you are planning to move beyond teaching at a seminary, training institute, or bible institute. ATS accreditation (alone) isn’t very strong outside of the seminary world. Make sure where you go is regionally accredited if you want to move beyond the world of seminaries, bible institutes, and training centers. The secular world tends to focus primarily on the regional accreditation and others as supplementary. I have a friend who has an M.Div. from a regionally accredited university with no ATS accreditation and he always has job offers to teach religion at jr. colleges and small christian colleges. In fact he is a tenure professor of philosophy and religion at a JUCO and is an adjuct for a Christian college. He tells me all the time he has friends who have D.Min.’s & Ph.D.’s from ATS only programs and they have a hard time finding work
When I arrived at my current position (teaching at a university) I was embarrassed that my doctorate was “only” a DMin. But, over the past decade, all my measures of performance, academic or administrative, have consistently equaled or exceed those of my PhD colleagues and it’s amazing, once one is hired (still a big hurdle), how little difference it makes. All the university sees is performance.
Apparently the chagrin about not-being-a-real-doctorate is limited to clergy. In the university world there are just PhD’s and “others”. My PhD, EdD, and PsyD coworkers accept it as a doctorate without qualms. One time I remarked to two of my fellow professors, PhD’s from Emory and Cornell, that the DMin was of “variable” quality. They both looked at me like I was a complete idiot and said, almost in unison, “You think that’s not true of PhD programs?” And when was the last time you met an MD or JD who apologized for their degree being practice oriented rather than academic?
DMin’s do tend to show up more in the higher ranks of professional organizations than academia but that’s to be expected. Anyway, many years ago I made the conscious choice not to get a PhD precisely because I felt it was my duty, as a pioneer (my DMin was granted in 1977), to help enhance the reputation of the degree. I’m now a full Professor and Program Chair at a regionally accredited university.
I suppose the point is that the point of any education is not the title; Rev, Dr, Baron – whatever. The point is fitness to serve.
D Min is the saddest of all degrees. Anybody who hears I have a D Min starts weeping instantly.
Jim… The saddest of all degrees?
Why do I keep having flashbacks of spinaltap?!?! ;)
As an extension to Robert Austell’s comments, the D.Min. degree is practical degree. Much like an MBA or an Ed.D. or for that matter, an M.D., it is a terminal degree intended for people who will be working in the field. In this case, the field is ministry. It is by no means a “fluff” degree — it is not intended to be an “academic” degree to prepare one to teach, although it is not uncommon to find folks with D.Min. degrees teaching, or preaching, or ministering, or serving people in some other manner. A large component of a D.Min. degree is that commitment to service, in fact.
I administer MA and D.Min. progams in theology (Orthodox Christian Theology in the Eastern Context). Our MA is an (applied) academic degree; the D.Min., like others, is a “professional” degree, designed for people who are or will be pastors, deacons, church-school directors, chaplains, missionaries, and so forth. From my perspective, both progams are very challenging. Students in the MA program read over 10,000 pages and write at least three papers for each class. In the final year, students complete their research and thesis. (The MA is optional. Some students stop with a post-bacc certificate rather than continue with the thesis and MA.)
In order to go on to the D.Min. program (from the MA or another graduate degree), students must have experience in ministry of some sort and must have an adequate background in theology. So before students are even admitted, they must have a certain level of competency.
I am in a Ph.D. program myself. Although I must say that it is truly quite challenging, I believe that the D.Min. program is no less challenging — and no less rewarding. Kudos to anyone who undertakes this important course of study in the spirit of service for which it is intended.
Best regards,
Cheri Mullins
Principal, Mullins Companies
Knowledge Management, Technical Communication, Training
Administrator, Antiochian House of Studies
St. Stephen’s Program, MA, DMin
PhD Student, Texas Tech University
BTW, Feel free to contact me if you want more information about the programs offered under the umbrella of the Antiochian House of Studies: certificate and MA programs in Applied Orthodox Theology and DMin program in Orthodox Christian Theology in the Eastern Context. cherimullins@yahoo.com.
My experience with my D. Min. program is both the regional and ATS accrediting agencies have been “raising the bar” for this degree throughout the years. My “project” was indeed a long dissertation. In fact, we used PhD. study handbooks to write the paper. It is by no means a “fluff” degree. However, getting a teaching position beyond community college or local technical school is next to impossible. I have been told on numerous occasions that there are “flood of PhDs out there already working in the Malls.” So I believe one must get any doctoral degree simply because they cherish the intrinsic value of the education. It has also kept me sharp intellectually as a parish pastor.
The word “Dr.” does not carry as much weight as “Pastor” in my denomination because we had so many candidacy and M. Div. “Hoops” to jump through.
According to the U.S. Department of Education and the National Science Foundation, the D.Min. is equivalent to, but different from (A D.Min. may not be able to write a book to ave his life, but a Ph.D. might not be able to plant a church or found an organization to save his life – although there are certainly exceptions to these general truisms), the Ph.D. Also, the D.Min. is considered by the aforementioned organizations to be a higher tier degree that the M.D. The M.D. is considered a “first graduate degree,” just like the M.Div. The D.Min. and Ph.D. degrees are both considered “second graduate degrees.” At the end of the day, the D.Min. is not any more of a fluff degree than is a Ph.D. It all has to do with where you get either of these degrees. There are degree mills and there are institutions that are regionally and ATS accredited. Any D.Min. or Ph.D. that is not accredited by both of these organizations is not worth the paper it is printed on.
Peter the apostle was considered uneducated. Yet when he preached, 3000 turned to Christ with one single message. What was the reason? He had the anointing of the Holy Spirit. Without anointing, no matter how many degrees you have, it is useless…
That is true, when they were first called by Jesus. But they were then discipled for three years by Jesus. By the time of the crucifixion, they had as much if not more direct education then a lot of pastors in the pulpits over the last half a century. Then, look at Paul, who had the equivalent of a Ph.D. in his day (trained as a Pharisee among Pharisees) and STILL went away to be discipled thereafter.
The fact of the matter is that being called to the ministry is a holistic call. It is not just about a “spiritual” leading. It is about training the mind as well. A quick read through the New Testament and the sermons of Peter and others show astounding theological motifs and understandings that probably weren’t present (they were fishermen) when they were called to be with Jesus.
After all, as a great man of God once said, “Jesus trained 30 years to be in a 3 year ministry. You can train 3 years for a 30 year ministry.”
As a state-licensed psychotherapist and university instructor, I hold two masters and a D.Min. My co-workers who hold the PhD, MD, and PsyD make no distinction. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true. When others learn of my degree they demonstrate a great regard and respect for the work and for the calling to the ministry. Many counselors and psychotherapists hold the D.Min. As a practical doctorate, my seminary training greatly enhanced my counseling and teaching skills. My D.Min opened a way for me to teach at a prestigious university, become a university chaplain, and I have a thriving psychotherapy practice. I ask each of my patients why they choose me–over other therapists–and hands down it is because they saw the D.Min, and they very much seek someone who is going to take a mind-body-spirit approach. But, the bottom line is that I felt called to seminary, and my time there cannot be matched. I will never forget what my professor said on my first day. He told the class that many hurting people go to medical doctors to heal their bodies, but if their spirits are broken, they will continue to suffer; doctors of ministry work through God to heal the broken spirit. I think that is beautiful. If a reader is trying to determine whether or not to seek a D.Min, please do not base your decision on the few opinions here. Pray, seek God’s face in your answer. If you choose the D.Min for the right reasons, I seriously believe you will not regret it. It is a unique spiritual quest.
In 1975 when the D. Min was is the process of being accepted, the Graduate Theological Union and San Francisco Theological Seminary set the bar high to assure that they would be accedited. I would put it aside any Ph.D. program. I subjected myself to it because I wanted to call myself Dr. when I made reservations for dinner. It never got me a better seat, but it made people's expectations higher and my production higher. I was called by the Holy Spirit to get it and I am glad I did.
Bravo Mike!
Many people earn all types of degrees: MBA, MEd, PhD, D.Min, etc… but in the end it is the content of degree holder's character and their personal leadership skill set that is seen by industry, academic institutions, the publishing world, and beyond. No educational degree holds a person back. If a person has an earned degree and is not finding work, promotion, or profit, perhaps the problem does not lie in the degree; perhaps there needs to be some introspection. The D.Min is one of the most respectable degrees in the world of academia. The blessing, the learning, the collective wisdom imparted from my professors, and most of all–the blessing from God–has opened many doors. If you have a gift of leadership, a compelling personality, and if you are following God's path, you will humbly understand what it truly means to be a Doctor of Ministry. And, we do not do this for the title. Please do not allow the naysayers to sway you; it is, and always will be a highly regarded degree by the U.S. Department of Education.
Great dialogue in processing whether a D.Min. is a fluff degree. What I find fascinating is a number of Ph.D. holders who are now pursing their D.Min. degree. They already have the title of "Doctor" so why in the world would they want to spend the money and time to do another doctoral degree?
Perhaps there are pressing questions asked by ministry leaders that a D.Min. is best designed to answer.
I finished my D.Min. at Oblate School of Theology, San Antonio, TX and it was not easy to get. My dissertation consists of 211 pages. The first part of the dissertation is theological reflection based on academic research, while the second part is based on the application of the theological reflection (of the first part) and the steps, results, and analysis of an experimental research on a parish.
For one year and a half, my dissertation was coming back and forth to my dissertation team for corrections, suggestions, revisions, etc. Then, when my dissertation was considered theologically and experimentally sound, I had to make a 45-minute presentation without notes to the faculty, students, and visitors. After the 45-minute presentation, the faculty and visitors grilled me with questions, like a “holy inquisition” defending my ideas, theological reflection, and experimental design and results. After the “holy inquisition,” the faculty members met for a while to decide whether I was worthy to be called a “doctor.” Then after the faculty meeting, I was called to the faculty meeting place to receive the verdict that I was worthy to be called “doctor.”
So is D.Min. a fluff degree? No. At least based on my experience with Oblate School of Theology, it is a degree for people who really know how to do sound and heavy theological research and reflection, apply one’s theological research and reflection, and measure, quantify, analyze, and interpret that application and its results.
Is this question with the intention to mock true seekers of The Word Of God to continue with their good intentions and be better prepared to serve Yes The Lord, but the Church in particular and those in need of comfort, those that are in Grief and need counseling, and what better way to serve humanity but through Spiritual Counseling.
There are reputable Universities and Institutes that will grant you a Degree of choice, and yes, Accredited. And I myself know many that are struggling to pay back the BIG loan obtain, and still cannot find a Church to serve, so they have no other alternative but to seek a secular job or continue with their present secular job.
In the ministry field, Accredited or not accredited your degree does not make a big difference in my case.
As long as you Did in Fact study, took the courses, years passed by and learned from the right sources the instruction you were yearning for and accomplished your goal, Bravo!
As long as the Degree was earned and not bought, it's what count to many members of different congregations.
The reverent and worshipful fear of The Lord is the beginning and the principal and choice part of knowledge (its starting point and its essence); but fools despise skillful and godly Wisdom, instruction, and discipline. 'The Amplified Bible'.
The Apostle Paul said: "And they who have used the Office well…Acquired to themselves a Good Degree." I Tim. 3:10-13 KJV
Many may do it for the earnings, the money. But many of us do it for His service, and to serve humanity, just like any other Medical Doctor in his field.
Than you.
A humble servant.
One can notice that Princeton Theological Seminary (PTS) changed the name of their D.Min. degree to Ph.D. in Practical Theology. See the content of PTS' Ph.D. in Practical Theology course: http://www2.ptsem.edu/offices/admissions/index.as... . The reasons probably are: a) just to be different and, b) so their graduates can teach having a Ph.D. instead of a D.Min. Note however that many D.Min. schools of theology have been raising their quality of teaching and students. There will probably come a time when many with D.Min. can teach pastoral theology in schools of theology and universities. Note also than many with D.Min. have other master degrees which can be used for teaching. The Association of Theological Schools (ATS) of US and Canada should screen carefully those member schools which easily grant the D.Min. degree. Easy granting D.Min. degree schools of theology give the D.Min. degree a bad reputation. Thus, for those who are contemplating to get a D.Min., be sure to get yours from a reputable school of theology with a quality "brand" or "trademark."
By the way, do not confuse Princeton Theological Seminary with Princeton University. PTS is not part of the University.
Since one must have the M.Div degree or equivalent before entering a D.Min, there is no such thing as an easy D.Min. There is no other masters that requires the depth and number of hours of the M.Div. Thus, the D.Min is a continuation of an already robust course of study. ATS requires a person enter with a minimum of 75-90 graduate hours before they can even be considered for a D.Min. Ph.D programs allow students to enter with a mere 30 graduate hours. There is really nothing to argue about here. Bottom line: the D.Min is a well-respected, highly-regarded degree. It has allowed me to teach at many highly respected universities. If someone has a D.Min, and that person is not excelling with it; he or she should look into the mirror—not the degree.
I consider the DMin a "fluff" degree in general, because I have known and worked with many who have earned this easy title. Not one of them could have survived a PhD program, as I did. After working my way through an academically-rigorous course of study to earn my own doctorate, I cannot take seriously those who believe attending part-time for a year or so is the equivalent. The fact that they themselves find the program challenging says more about them than it does about the program. The DMin is, after all, a professional degree, not a scholarly one. I rank it with honorary degrees in value – a nice title if one wants to feel important, but short on substance.
REC: May I give you a gentle challenge? Perhaps you have not done your research. Many on the board hold the PhD and the DMin. I hold a DMin, and I am at the dissertation stage of my PhD; thus far, my PhD studies have been a walk in the park in comparison. Did you know that a D.Min student cannot even enter without a 75-90 hour MDiv or equivalent (which includes Hebrew, Greek, etc…)? PhD programs only require a 30 hour masters to enter. Using knowledge from your PhD, could it be that your response is not based on fact but on personal opinion? It is important for us to discuss that which we know, and not advisable to discuss that which we do not; which should be taught in any DMin or PhD program of substance. But, most important is what is learned in a DMin. The DMin creates Doctors of Ministry, those who draw upon ancient truth that brokenness can only be mended when a person's spirit is whole. All learning is worthwhile (yours and mine) when, in the end, it helps others to be transformed through the renewing of their minds as they grow to be more like Christ. I do not believe the typical DMin student enters to boast a title; this would go against their belief in humility and denying self.
If one wants to go down the "personal ancedote" path regarding doctoral degrees, I can point out a number of PhD graduates who tenaciously hide behind their academic tenure because without their tenured positions, their knowledge would at best get them a job as a fast food restaurant manager or selling shoes at the area shopping mall. I can identify PhD graduates who could never survive even 1 week in a congregation as a Pastor as I do [21 + years] with my D. Min. degree. The ATS does keep its eyes on the academic requirements of the D. Min. degree as I see it. The one who criticizes the D. Min. actually needs to target their words toward the ATS accrediting agency [who by the way is looking at PhD programs online!]
I am one of those who has done a D.Min, and am currently involved in a Ph.D. program (OT).
The fact of the matter is, they are completely different animals. I do however, think it is quite telling, that at least three of us in the Ph.D. program, have a D.Min. The bottom line is, as I said before, it depends very much on WHERE you get your degree from. The EXACT same is true of a Ph.D. program.
However, I find it much easier to hide away in a library and write for a number of hours, than I did writing, then leading a 15 week seminar using metrics to test the change I was introducing, then reporting and analyzing said change for my D.Min.
Ok, I have been praying and researching the possiblity of pursuing a DMin for quite sometime. I hear many of you say that it depends on where you get your DMin as to whether or not it’s a fluff degree. So where do you recommend? What have you heard about Gordon-Conwell?
Thanks,
Chaplain Mike
bethelgraduate@aol.com
I have a clergy friend who did a D. Min. in Preaching at Gordon Conwell. It was challenging, and he had a good experience in the program. It helped his preaching tremendously.
Thanks to all for the great discussion on this page. I’m a pastor who holds an M.Div. from Baylor University and am considering returning there to earn a D.Min. I really appreciate the “real-world” information you’ve all related on the practicality of the degree (sorry for the pun), and believe that you’ve all helped me greatly make my decision.
Like some of you, I had considered the D.Min. to be a “Mickey Mouse” degree compared to the Ph.D., but I had no real reason for this belief. I had assumed that anything less than a Ph.D. was sub-standard, and that whether I intended to teach at the university or seminary level or not I should strive for the excellence afforded a Doctor of Philosophy. However, I think that I’ve learned enough about myself and my calling to see that I am a pastor, regardless of the degrees I hold (I have a B.S. in Mathematics) I cannot escape the nature and grace that have been given me.
To that end, I have a question about everyone’s experiences in the programs they’ve attended: I understand that the culminating project (or dissertation?) is contextual, and is limited by the ministry setting in which I find myself while in the program. However, I have a distinct calling to a field that is significantly different than my current setting (church school administrator rather than local church pastor). Would it be better for me to enter the D.Min. program when I’m in a more “appropriate” ministry setting, or should I attempt to tailor a project to some sort of happy middle between where I am and where I feel that I ultimately will be?
Brock: You may want to read some of my other responses on the board as well (just scroll up to find my last three posts). You might be interested to know that ATS schools also have a D.Ed.Min (Doctor of Educational Ministry). This might suit your needs a bit more. You can go to the ATS website to find schools that currently offer this degree.
To All Those Doubting the Value of a D.Min:
May I give you a gentle challenge? Perhaps you have not done your research. Many on the board hold the PhD and the DMin. I hold a DMin, and I am at the dissertation stage of my PhD; thus far, my PhD studies have been a walk in the park in comparison. Did you know that a D.Min student cannot even enter without a 75-90 hour MDiv or equivalent (which includes Hebrew, Greek, etc…)? PhD programs only require a 30 hour masters to enter. Using knowledge from your PhD, could it be that your response is not based on fact but on personal opinion? It is important for us to discuss that which we know, and not advisable to discuss that which we do not; which should be taught in any DMin or PhD program of substance. But, most important is what is learned in a DMin. The DMin creates Doctors of Ministry, those who draw upon ancient truth that brokenness can only be mended when a person’s spirit is whole. All learning is worthwhile (yours and mine) when, in the end, it helps others to be transformed through the renewing of their minds as they grow to be more like Christ. I do not believe the typical DMin student enters to boast a title; this would go against their belief in humility and denying self.
All of the comments are interesting…but perhaps the issue is whatever the doctoral degree in theology or applications of theogy are involved in pursuit of D.Mins. Ph.D’s. D.Th’s. S.T.D.’s, J.C.D., etc. are any of us in theology for prestige or for “more money” or benefits. Taking on the discipline of studying theology, whatever its branches, should be about knowing and living more deeply the truth of Who God is and His work in all of us.
I have both a Ph.D. and a D.Min. from two different well known Universities. Neither was a correspondence degree program or a watered down process. The major difference was
1) No comprehensive examinations for the D.Min and 2) no language requirement at the doctoral level. However with regard to the latter most D.Min candidates on the way to the doctor of ministry have already been required to study the biblical languages, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and possibly even pastoral Spanish at the Master’s Level. Many who earn a Ph.D. are not required to do so. In my Ph.D. requirements for language I took a comprehensive language test one morning in Spanish and it turned out to be from well known Don Qixote. The other language was knowing a computer language like DOS or Fortran. Both required research for the final doctoral project but the D.Min required practical application of theology studies to a real problem in the real world of ministry.
Broad strokes against any degree should not be made. It comes down to the quality of the individual doctoral programs in the various seminaries and univesities and most of all to the individual student. Some scrape through and barely earn any doctorate…most are serious about their subject matter. Academics or pay raise or prestige is not the criteria in the field of theology. Why did I get two doctorates – Ph.D. was first because a D.Min was not available to me at the time. The D.Min came in my later years when I was driven to learn more and more about God and His people… and guess what – I am still auditing
formal courses in various theological areas – we can never know everything there is to know about God!
B
WOW! You really sound cynical about Dr. Pastor. With that degree of cycnicism, no ph.d or MinD will help you be a better pastor. Skip the degree and concentrate on developing minsterial qualities …. hope, respect, forgiveness, coaching, mentoring, and love of Christ.
Someone mentioned a D.Ed.Min… can the above contributors give more information/opinion on this type of degree? Prereguisites? Time involved? Any information is greatly appreciated. Blessings.
You can go to the Association of Theological Schools and Colleges (ATS) website to learn a bit more. The D.Ed.Min is for those involved in Educational Ministry. Typically, anyone who enters seminary must have an M.Div. or equivalent. This is usually a 76-90 hour masters degree. One must typically have at least 60 hours of graduate studies to enter any type of seminary doctorate.
I completed my second Masters Degree (M.Div.) in 1995. I am thinking about another program of study. Leaving my parsonage is not an option. So, I am seriously considering a D.Min. I am thankful for the option.
Wow, Adam… this is the comment thread that keeps on giving…
I recently saw this graphical depiction of a Ph.D. … nice perspective.
http://gizmodo.com/5613794/what-is-exactly-a-doctorate
Robert
Jim, The saddest of all degrees?!? I ask you that same question like Pastor Christian.
You have no idea what it takes to obtain a Religious Degree. I bet you are an Atheist ! Right?
I respect anyone who has Earned a Religious Degree of Choice because it was God's will for them to become instructed and well educated and trained in their field.
Just curious, what "Secular Degree do you have? That enjoy humiliating Religious Degrees?
Fools despise Wisdom and Instruction. (Prov.)
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