Is the D.Min a “fluff” degree?
September 17, 2007
Just recently I’ve been reading a new blog, The Cutting Truth. I’m not sure if it’s a current/previous student of Princeton Seminary, but the author makes some references to PTS, so there may be a connection. The author writes some really biting critiques of seminary, the church and other issues. Check it out - and read the most recent entry about the Doctor of Ministry degree.
I thought it was pretty hilarious. The D.Min tends to be the brunt of some jokes every now and then. I know that during my first year at Princeton, as some of us were beginning to feel the intensity of the academic pressure and others were fearing they’d never get into a Ph.D program - there were those of who’d smile and say, “D.Min baby - go for the D.Min.” The author of the post writes about how the D.Min helps financially-struggling seminaries pull in more cash, and how it enables pastors to finally be able to get that raise they’ve wanted, because they’re “Dr. Pastor” now. Here is a quote from the article:
“After three quick, easy, study-lite years, the pastor has attained his Doctor of Ministry degree. His doctorate degree. That degree gives the pastor a tremendous amount of respect now. He is Dr. Pastor now, a real somebody. More importantly, there is tremendous upside attached to his new title, and the ceiling on his earning potential has just been lifted. Dr. Pastor has clout now, or Dr. Rev. Pastor, if you will. Suffice it to say, he has respect, money, and position.”
I’ve often thought it would be a nice way, a quick and easy way, to get the “Dr.” prefix to my name. The Rev. Dr. Adam Walker Cleaveland. It just sounds good. Any readers have D.Min degrees? What was your experience? Any out there planning on getting the illustrious Doctor of Ministry degree?
Tags: Choosing-a-Seminary, D.Min, Doctor-of-Ministry, Princeton-Theological-Seminary
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Adam Walker Cleaveland: I am a 28 yr old 
September 17th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Adam,
Unfortunately, I think the comments about the D.Min. are stereotypes based (as many stereotypes) in some reality. There are academic/hard D.Min. programs and there are easy/short ones… on down to probably ordering on online for $29.99. In fact, I googled for online Ph.D. degrees, and quickly found one for $500. I’m sure with some searching, one could get an even better deal.
With all that said, it is unfair to paint with such a broad brush stroke. I am in the 6th year of working on a D.Min. in the area of theology and worship. My first four years were spent taking 8 courses (2/yr), each with 30-35 hrs. of class-time 2000+ pgs. of reading and a 30-50 pg. paper. I am now about 2/3 through a 450 pg. “project” (technically a dissertation is what you write for a Ph.D.). As with any degree, it is what you make of it. I am not doing it for a higher salary or for recognition… I’m doing it in an area in which I was already doing advanced study, and in which I am engaged in ministry.
Ideally, the distinction between Ph.D. and D.Min. is the same as that between a medical research Ph.D. and a M.D. One is an academic degree for teaching, the other a professional degree for application in the field. The D.Min. is advanced study in the area of Christian ministry for those working in the field. I’ve been pleased and it has been the right choice for me. [And it's been a workout to get done while being a solo pastor of a 250-member church. It is definitely not a walk in the park.] I would hope that the doctoral project will be publishable when I’m done, but if not, I definitely will use the content in the seminars and conferences I’m involved with regionally.
In God’s grace,
Robert Austell
September 17th, 2007 at 11:07 am
I’ve been contemplating a D.Min. degree for the past year. I well remember the D.Min. vs. Ph.D. discussions at PTS. I know some people in the the Ph.D. program there would say that a D.Min. is nothing but a glorified Th.M. Having also done a Th.M at PTS, and knowing people who are doing their D.Min. there, I would disagree with that - clearly the D.Min. is a different level of study. The Th.M. program was not as challenging as I hoped, more like an extra year of seminary of an M.Div. (but nonetheless, I’m glad that I did it).
In regards to the article you linked, I’m sure that there are pastors who earn the D.Min just so that they can have the prestige of putting the “Dr.” in front of their name and possibly get a raise (although in Wyoming people aren’t so impressed with degrees and titles). And I’m sure there are seminaries who use the D.Min. program as a cash cow and the admission requirements are minimal - just as there are with some undergrad, master’s, and Ph.D. programs. However, every person I know who has gotten a D.Min. has done so for reasons of professional development and to be a better servant to the congregation they are serving. Entrance into to the programs to which they applied - PTS and Austin - certainly wasn’t a formality, and I know some who have gotten turned down. They have worked hard and poured themselves into the program. Plus, like Robert said above, the challenges can’t be underestimated of doing a D.Min. while being a pastor. That’s one of the main reasons that I’m hesitating applying for a D.Min. program.
September 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Adam,
As one with a Ph.D. — I can say that having a Dr. by one’s name doesn’t assure you of a big raise (whether that Dr. is of the Ph.D. variety or the D.Min. variety).
I think too that like every degree program they run the gamut –from the scholarly to the not so scholarly. A D.Min is a professional degree, intended to encourage and endorse one’s continuing educatno. I know that in the early days of these degree programs there was a debate as to whether one should go right on through past the M.Div. and complete a D.Min. They were largely in residence programs that didn’t fit the life of a serving pastor. Most D.Mins today are for pastors in ministry and thus aren’t “residential.”
My advice to anyone thinking of doing a doctorate of any kind — don’t do it for the prestige. I’ve learned over the past 9 years of pastoral ministry — after being more an academic prior to that — that my Dr. means very little in the actual work of the ministry. Hopefully what a D.Min. will foster is a life-long pursuit of learning. Whether one has a D.Min., a Ph.D. or an M.Div — indeed whether one only has a BA — it should not be said that the copyright date of the most recent book in your library is the same as your graduation date. You don’t have to read as much as I do, but you must continue reading!!!
September 17th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Adam - long time no read.
I think Robert’s dead on here. And the author of the Cutting Truth needs to realize, as you do, that Rev comes BEFORE Dr. - which in my opinion, means that the prestige is attached to the Rev.
IF you’re doing a DMin for salary or the title - you’re in the WRONG line of work. And frankly, you’re probably a pretentious idiot who no one wants preaching and counseling anyway. But I have NO desire to get a Phd. But I don’t want to stop reading & studying. What’s left for a person like me, who wants to pastor and not be a professor, but keep studying and learning is the DMin. And just like any degree, it’s what you make of it. Heck, there are a ton of people who graduated with the same degree I did (and you will) - and I’ll bet most of them made more on the academic side of their’s than I did. But no one looks at that, it’s just the letters. So, an academically “light” degree may be looked down on by some, but the actual value varies - you can learn alot outside the classroom too, right?
I happened to be thinking about getting my Dmin from a school in a warehouse, that includes soccer moms among it’s students…
September 17th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
I remember the pastor at the church I served in seminary telling me not to get a DMin but to go for a PhD. His reasoning: (1) You’re smart and you can finish a PhD
(2) You can’t use a DMin for much other than a title in church work or a placemat
Interestingly, he had a DMin! The reality in a world where education is more and more expected is that more people will want a doctorate. Most universities aren’t going to let you teach witha DMin (my seminiary has only one faculty member with a DMin-the rest PhDs). I think the days of a doctorate being a doctorate are behind us becasue so many people know the difference between a Phd, EdD, PsyD and DMin. A person can become a Psycholigst with a PhD or a PsyD but the perception of the PsyD being a ‘cop out’ degree because of it’s lack of a dissertation is strong.
In the little (and I mean very little-about 8 schools) reserach I’ve done I found that it was MUCH easier to get financial aid in the form of scholarships (as opposed to loans) when working on a PhD instead of a DMin.
September 17th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
In response to Bridget’s comment… I agree, if you want to go teach in a college or graduate school setting, a Ph.D. is the way to go. The point of a D.Min. (what is meant by a “professional degree”) is that one presses in deeply into the context of ministry in the church (or mission or hospital). Most D.Min. topics are grounded in the local context of that particular pastor. e.g. topics like: church planting in urban Atlanta, Christian education practices in ESL contexts, etc… The point is not to prepare to teach a subject (unless it’s that particular context), but to deepen present ministry. So, many programs focus on preaching or leadership or counseling or missions… things specifically set in the context of parish ministry. The M.D./medical Ph.D. distinction is still helpful to me. One trains people to do medicine, the other to research and teach medicine and advance the field. I think the distinction is similar with the D.Min. and religious Ph.D.
September 17th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
It seems a bit difficult to discuss in the abstract (that is, abstracted from what you’d like to do, which specific programs your discussing, etc.). To complicate matters furthers, you can also get a Th.D.
September 18th, 2007 at 1:39 am
I’m about to finish my undergrad and I’m looking at going into ministry so I’m thinkn to myself “where can I sign up?” Of course I have to be smart though, I dont want to be OVERqualified. Thanks for the insightful post.
September 18th, 2007 at 10:01 am
The comments about academic v. professional/practical are something to heed - and some programs are more intense, even within the same seminary!
I’m in a D.Ed.Min program - in a year with a 400 hour practicum and all it will entail (still developing it - on worship music and religious education), with three two-week intensives with about 1000+ pages of reading, monthly threaded conversations on the topics of the month. Total of 7 required courses, two electives, a practicum and a final project - over 4 years. While working fulltime and doing other things.
It is not fluff. I am not doing it for prestige. I am doing as a lifelong learner. And yeah, I am doing it, in some aspects, for the credentials and a way to bolster longer-term earning power As a single for 12 years women with two mostly grown kids, who will be working into her late 60’s/early 70’s by my estimations, and who has butted against the glass ceiling since gradutaing from college in the later 70’s - it won’t hurt the potential, it ain’t a magic potion - and the experience is to be in a learning community that values learning and one another - it is mostly to be more effectively prepared and energized to do what I am called to do.
October 13th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
The bottom line is do what God has called you to do. I am a D.Min. student at United Theological Seminary in Dayton and I found it to be an enhancement to the ministry God has called me to. I have successfully defended my dissertation and believe me, it wasn’t a cake walk. Also, I know 3 peers who graduated from United and they are teaching at seminaries and Christian colleges and universities because they have terminal degrees. So even with a D.Min., God will still open doors.
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:29 pm
I took a D.Min a Boston University. I wanted to work on a Ph.D. but wasn’t willing to put my family through the sacrifice necessary for a residential degree. I actually did my class work in Boston but mostly did it in summers or during short terms. But I would very much like to teach. I’ve had more academic work published than most professors but that doesn’t matter. Without the Ph.D. you can’t get an interview. Reinhold Niebuhr or Karl Barth would be left out in the cold in the 21st century.
It certainly is true that some D.Min. degrees are “fluff” and shame on the seminaries or universities who allow that to happen.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Interesting read.
I am just finishing a D.Min. Matter of fact, as I type this, I am sitting here with specialty paper getting ready to print out my final binding copies.
Before I began the D.Min. program, I thought that it was a lite degree and was taking it to help me in the ministry. As I now finish the program, I can’t tell you how wrong I was.
I attended the School of Evangelism and Church Growth at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Before my first class, I submitted a 5 page book critique for a “reading” just to make sure I was doing it right. Please understand, I spent 15 hours on this 5 page critique. I edited it 3 times, my wife (who is an unbelievable proof-reader) proofed it, then I proofed it again, gave it back to her, and then proofed it again once after she gave it back to me. When I picked up the critique a week later, the professor had marked all over the paper and on the top was the phrase, “This is a good start.” I was mortified.
Over the next four years, I read over 3,000 pages PER SEMESTER, wrote NUMEROUS book critiques, research papers, etc. etc. We also had post-seminar work to accomplish in online forums with the professor and the rest of the cohort, including more reading of other books (not included in the above 3,000).
After all that was over, the project started. Two chapters of in-depth research, then after approval, 15 weeks of a project within the church. That project and its analysis made up two other chapters. Beyond all of that, I then had to go and defend the project. While my defense wasn’t that bad, there were a number of changes I had to make.
Now, at the end of this journey (and a month from beginning a Th.M. and hopefully a Ph.D. at another seminary), I can say that my D.Min in no way is a fluff degree.
With all that said, there are many fly-by-night programs, in many different fields. Find a program that is in a respected school, with respected professors in the field you want.
Then do it. It is a great Professional degree.
April 20th, 2008 at 2:03 am
Tisk Tisk on most of you. It appears that most of you have made degrees an Idol. It is not about you but about doing God’s work. Stop talking about yourself and go out into the world and preach the good news. You don’t need a degree to do this, in fact all you need is faith. Degree’s are human made, I say throw them in the trash.
June 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
I did a D.Min., which led to doing the Ph.D. Doing the D.Min. led me to want to do more serious academic work. While doing the ph.D., though, I went back and finished the D.Min. shortly before finishing the Ph.D.
I have met people with D.Min degrees who did it for prestige, and I have also met some that I thought had no business in any graduate program, let alone a doctoral program. One of the biggest jerks I have met along my journey was a Princeton DMin who acted like he was the resident scholar in the denomination because of this “prestige.” He used to abuse students in the in-care process, including me. One time I pulled his dissertation while visiting the PTS library–it was a 60 page history of his own congregation, and on top of that it sucked. I was ready for the next time he decided to throw some theology at me (as a candidate for ordination) like some expert to be like, I know what the D stands for in your degree. He was also seriously academically misinformed about basic theology and facts about world religions–but it was because he had this degree and he carried himself a certain way he spoke with authority.
But I can say that I had DMin classes that were more work than my PhD classes and the difficult question of ‘where does theory hit the pavement’ is always relevant in the DMin classes. More often than not this question was laughable in the PhD.
The biggest difference between the two for me was the PhD comprehensvie exams, language exams, and the more serious dissertation that makes a clearly original academic contribution. You could do this kind of dissertation/project in a DMin, but more often it was taking some theory and putting it into practice in some project. But those projects also involved using social science and statistical methods for analyzing the data, too, and I have seen Psy.D dissertations in the social sciences which were not dissimilar. The DMin programs just don’t have the exams and the languages–but those were the biggest hurdles in the PhD program, at least for me.
Also, there was a study you can find on the internet of students in the DMin programs in the US in the late 1990s. One of the biggest findings was that the DMin acted as a ritual for mid-career pastors to return to seminary and be refreshed in their love of learning (whatever that might mean) to bring about new focus or excitement in the second half of a professional career. Being that this is the point of burnout for many, it has morphed into what was argued to be a much needed “ritual.” Those who earned a DMin usually changed jobs and had higher salaries within five years, but it isn’t necessarily BECAUSE of the degree but because of new-found focus and excitement to move on to something new. Take that however you want.