Stickin’ it to “the Man”
November 15, 2006
I’ve written before about Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church. I’ve worshipped at Mars Hill before, with my cousin and his wife who attend the church. My best friend (who was my Best Man at my wedding) also is very involved with the church - so I know there are some great people who attend Mars Hill. But I have serious issues with both Mark Driscoll and his theology, which is really no different than any other Southern Baptist, very fundamentalist version of Christianity.
In the past few years, one of the biggest critiques of Mark is his perspective on women and the church. Most recently, he has been called a misogynist because of his rhetoric against women and desire for an uber-masculinity for Christian men. One post at Off the Map blog, Conversation at the Edge, had a post with over 300 comments.
At any rate, there is one group that has had enough and decided to publicly let Driscoll and Mars Hill Church know that they find Mark’s preaching misogynistic, hurtful and oppressive to women. People Against Fundamentalism describes themselves as follows:
People Against Fundamentalism is a
grassroots organization composed of people who are tired of their
sincerely held faith being hijacked by fundamentalists who seek
primarily to oppress others. We also welcome people not part of a faith
tradition who want to stand in solidarity with us against
fundamentalism in all its forms.This is not about arcane theological disagreements. For us, this is an issue of justice, not hate.
And how are they going to let Mark know their feelings? They are going to show up at the Mars Hill Ballard campus for the 11am service on December 3rd to make their stand known. They describe the event as follows: "We’ve no idea if Mark the Misogynist is going to be there. We are not
seeking an explosive confrontation or a shouting match. We simply want
to show Mars Hill congregants and the rest of Seattle that we will no
longer tolerate Driscoll’s view of women."
I don’t know if this is going to be the most effective way of getting this perspective out there, but it’s possible. From what I’ve read, it definitely is going to be a nonviolent protest against Mark’s view of women. Anyway, I’ll be interested to hear what the fallout is to this, as well as to what Mark’s response is. I can assume that he’ll just say something like, "The Truth is never comfortable or popular…but we will continue to fight for the biblical version of manhood and the family…etc, etc." We’ll see…
Update: There have been quite a lot of blog posts about this event and people’s reactions. I encourage you to read Scot McKnight’s post which contains a letter written by Rose Madrid-Swetman. It is quite the well-thought-out letter to Mark Driscoll and I am sure that he will get wind of it. We’ll see what happens…
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
November 15th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
I never knew Driscoll to be fundamentalist. His view is not unlike the “head-covering” of a male leader or husband and he doesn’t disapprove of women preaching as long as there is a Biblical head-covering asmentioned by the Apostle Paul. His other views are not fundamentalist in that one disapproves of the sin but loves the person. Also, protesting like this seems to go against what the Apostle Paul staes as the proceedures when a “brother is found in an offense” (this is not to say I find whathesaidor did as offensive but to point out the unbilical proceedures followed in this so-called protest.) I too am all for justice and not hate. One thatis Biblical and takes into consideration ALL of Scripture without a cultural bias that goes beyond the red-letters because as a matter of fact ALL of Scripture is “red letter”.
November 15th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
it’s great that Driscoll is suggesting on his most recent post that another pastor is not being “pastoral”. I got a kick out of that.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:07 am
If this group wants to protest, that’s fine. But I have a big problem with going to a service just to protest. That can be very distracting and can quench the Spirit. I think they should protest in another manner to get their point across
November 16th, 2006 at 9:43 am
I don’t think they should protest at all but should follow the proceedures for this sort of thing (if they think what he said was so terrible) set forth in the Epistles for how the Body of Christ should deal with this.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:15 am
From the halls of the justice league the theological thought police comes to the rescue! Posing as mild-mannered emasculated males and beefy women by day, they are ever responsive and ready to crush fundamentalist hijackers with placards and noisiness.
So, if you are are out there having unapproved thoughts or ideas that don’t fundamentally agree with ours - beware! We will NOT tolerate anyone that we perceive as oppressors and are not afraid to use our estrogen ray (in a non-violent way of course).
November 16th, 2006 at 11:25 am
For those who are saying that the protesters should follow Biblical procedures, what you do you think if Driscoll has refused to meet with them?
November 16th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Well Dave, the protestors are not even members of the church. When modern Christians comdemn Emergent and follow the Epistles by discussing individually then publically they don’t protest at Emergent churches like these people are. I just feel there is somewhat of a double standard by these protestors and it is also unbiblical. People are free to disagree with Mark but to address this in an unbiblical way I feel shows peoples “true colors”. (pun intended) :)
November 16th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
What would the Biblical way be? If someone is unwilling to meet with you, what would you suggest?
And does it matter that they are not members of the church? I don’t find church membership anywhere in the Bible, nor do I find anything related to church membership in terms of dealing with conflict.
And a double standard? It would only be a double standard if they were upset with people for protesting them.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Um, is this for real? I have so many women friends who LOVE Mars Hill. I personally really enjoy the ministry that Mark has out in Seattle. I find it terribly disheartening that people can be some myopic and insular on this. They don’t like what he preaches, so they are trying to go out there and make him realize the error of his ways? Wow…that is more arrogant and hateful than anything I have ever heard Mark say in a sermon.
Next up…”Liberalism gone wild!”
November 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Dave, I think you will find that many Emergent are upset when modern Christian people (maybe not protest) “voice their opinion”. I think you will find that many, many Emergent Christians ARE upset with people who “voice their opinion” against them.
To answer your first question Biblically, it says “shake the dust off your feet”. I think 1 Cor. 6 takes into account this from a different angle than I presented by the protest. Public protest is taking the issue among unbelievers as well as believers which seems incosistent with Scripture. While I don’t think what Mark said or did is sin Galatians 6 also addresses this as well.
I will try to find the specific passages where it says to keep it private, take another brother with you to address, if he still doesn’t listen present it before the Body, etc. I still think protesting is not the same as “presenting it before the Body”. To me that is presenting it to the world which includes people who are outside the Body and thus becomes “out of line”.
True it doesn’t make a distinction between members and non-members. However, many people big on Apologetics address things without protesting. What if a modern christian went to an Emergent church and protested (which I obviously wouldn’t condone but present this for thesake of argument and example) certain unbiblical actions and teachings. I don’t think that that particular Emergent church would approve of such “protest”. Especially after reading responses from Emergent to Dr. Carson and Colson. I think that shows a double standard on the part of those doing or approving the protesting. IMHO
November 16th, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Amen, Ringo. :)
November 16th, 2006 at 5:41 pm
I’ve been listening to Mark’s video podcasts for some time, and I really do have to disagree with this prideful uprising too. I’d simply have to echo Ringo’s words: taking an issue of mere disagreement and generating it into a personal atack on Mark ‚Äì “misogynistic, hurtful and oppressive to women”? ‚Äì is far more disturbing than anything Mark has said.
Perhaps most of all, I’m impressed to state that EVERYTHING Mark preaches on is directly informed by the Bible and he articulates it‚Äì his theology might differ from yours, but he’s deriving it from very a in-depth study of Scriptures in a non-regurgitative way, and his sermons are more along the lines of seminary-level exploration and Bible study than some of the “fluff” you’d find in even some “fundamental” churches.
Mark Driscoll’s 7/26/06 sermon entitled “Under Authority Like Christ” seems to directly address this particular subject of misogyny, and I would presume that since his answers in this sermon to questions of feminism and chauvinism are directly informed ‚Äì dictated, in fact ‚Äì by his own careful examination of Scriptures (1 Corinthians 11:2-16), this kind of protesting against him would be relatively a non-issue.
I’m a Washingtonian who visits Seattle often, and from my observation of him, Driscoll is honest in what he says, trying earnestly to live a worship-centered life in all he preaches and says. What’s more, Seattle is responding ‚Äì Seattle desperately needs a Paul figure to take a compassionate stand, and I believe Mark, for time being, has been placed in that role. The enormous popularity of Mars Hill ‚Äì and, dare I say, “revolution” ‚Äì among Seattlites (probably the most feminist place you can find) goes above and beyond in showing the impact and truth in his words.
Seattle isn’t the Bible strip or a traditional hotbed of fundamentalism, mind you. In fact I’d venture to declare that, generally, the people of Seattle are the exact opposite of it ‚Äì they’re some of the most liberal people in America. Let’s accept it: Driscoll can’t “fool anyone” with his “fundamentalism rhetoric” here. Mars Hill Church would have no legs whatsoever in Seattle if it weren’t for the possibility that perhaps, just perhaps, they’re functioning as Paul was to the Corinthians ‚Äì a testimony of God’s Truth. There is simply no other way they could survive otherwise.
And the idea that some Christians will launch a volley of namecalling at Driscoll, despite his clearly articulated Biblical basis, despite his obvious compassion for women in his congregation (again, listen to his sermons and attend the church), despite the obvious work of the Holy Spirit in Seattle through Mars Hill, and despite that he is a brother in Christ ‚Äì to do so, to wage such a war, shows a great immaturity, spiritual and otherwise. I empathize with Ringo in how disheartening I find it that “people can be so myopic and insular on this.”
November 16th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
I wish i had more time to comment. I am about to head to class. I think the protest is sort of silly. I think people should find a way to be heard, but this isn’t it. Showing up as a wolf to disrupt a worship service isn’t they way to go about ushering in the kingdom. Let’s face it, there’s gonna be lots of people in Heaven who have bitterly disagreed with each other. That’s just the way it is. Mark reads the bible differently than you. So what. You read it differently than me. Mark makes a genuine effort to preach the bible. If we (the mars hill folk) choose to let God be the judge and not to “interpret” too much about His words, (I.e. take a more literal approach to the instruction therein), then what is the big deal? Mark makes some comments that could be put more diplomatically, but he’s not a politician. So get over it. (that goes for you too adam!!! Love you bro ;)
See you at Christmas…
November 16th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Thought you’d like to see Mark’s response to some of the criticism here.
November 16th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
I’m impressed to state that EVERYTHING Mark preaches on is directly informed by the Bible and he articulates it
Really? Can you tell me where in scripture it says that a church leader/pastor needs to be “masculine?” And I am not talking about being male. Driscoll distinguishes between being male and being masculine. And he believes that men in the church need to be “masculine.”
Drisoll probably would have attacked David for playing a harp and writing poetry.
November 16th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
btw…I am not sure that I support such a protest. I am not sure that it is an appropriate way to address the situation.
But I have read plenty of Driscoll - both in books in articles. And over and over again I have been offended at this comments towards women and anyone else who may act, think, or simply be different than Mark Driscoll. So I am glad that people are bringing attention to Driscoll’s hurtful rhetoric.
November 17th, 2006 at 1:05 am
Well, David not only played the harp and wrote poetry but was also king of a pretty big nation and had no hesitation to kill giants and wrestle with lions. So I dunno about that.
I don’t know how fully to address your idea (and I do suppose I was a bit wrong to make such a blanket statement, although I do believe Driscoll intends and at least attempts for everything he preaches on to be directly informed by the Bible), but this I will say:
From my own personal experience working in a church (children’s ministry, but hey), Men simply don’t come to church. Sure, there are a few, but for every man who goes to my church, there are 10 more who would go if it weren’t for the fact that church is too namby pamby and woman-y. The average male out there simply needs for the church to honestly address the issue of masculinity before they even begin to accept the idea of attending church regularly.
That’s simply my personal experience and observation, although there’s been plenty of recent books written about it. And again, from my perspective I’ve simply seen Driscoll’s efforts as an attempt to address this need of men.
I don’t speak for Driscoll, but as for myself ‚Äì and based on what sermons I’ve heard and what material I’ve read from Driscoll, I believe he would take a similar stance ‚Äì it’s absolutely okay for men to play harps and write poetry. This is just most often accompanied by an equal balance of gruntly testerone-ish “slaying giants” and “warring with enemies”, which Driscoll seems to feel the church has largely ignored and so he himself tries to address.
Hey, and just for the record, I’m about the most unmanliest man ever. I’m about as similar to Driscoll as a turnip is to a pirate. I teach preschool and work with kids at a church, and I get hives at even the thought of touching a gun or a dead animal, for goodness sake ‚Äì but I’m not at all offended by Driscoll’s remarks.
November 17th, 2006 at 10:04 am
Gee, it seems that it is not just the only the “fundementalists” who get their panties in a bind. Sounds like these guys are doing just what many in their camp condemn us “fundies” for: creating division, being dogmatic, unfair, rude, etc..
Wow, so the emergent church doesn’t have it right! That’s comforting to know, just goes to show that even though I am a Southern Baptist we can still relate on one issue: neither one of is perfect. At least we will come out and say it.
Blessings,
November 21st, 2006 at 1:05 am
I attend Mars Hill church and we are very proud of our pastor and support his mission. I am disappointed with the way Mark’s warnings and exceptional “preventive safeguards” to evade temptation got so twisted in his blog. We women of the church are not oppressed by any means. Mark speaks biblically based truth to Seattle and is working in submission to God’s work in bringing the Gospel to Seattle. This protest is a foolish way to handle a disagreement for use of words, or “rhetoric.” Protesting at a church is an obstruction for God’s work and a poor witness to other Christians, new Christians, or non believers. A protest is just aiding in the already vigorous spiritual attacks pastors already face and not a testimony of a serving body of Christ. I think lifting him up in prayer would be a better service.
I have to echo Ringo….a protest is more arrogant and hateful than anything I have ever heard Mark say in a sermon!
December 4th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
For the record, Mr. Driscoll is not a fundie, he is very much reformed in his theology. Furthermore, he has my 100% support! I will pass on my similar thoughts from another blog here. I am also disappointed with Mr. Mcknight, he is usually a good friend to those of the Acts 29 Network Church crowd, but sadly, although I agree that he is entitled to his opinion, unfortunately it is greatly misconstrued and mistaken! Suffice to say, I am greatly disappointed with many of the “so called” leaders in the christian church and their lack of biblical approach on how to deal with issues similar to this.
McKnights thread closed on this topic, unfortunately. Too bad most of the lemmings seem to concur with the host of the site. However, I think at this specific time, and with this specific incident, Mark Driscoll has spoken almost prophetically to a culture that is in most dire need to be corrected theologically, sociologically, pyschologically, philosophically, and most importantly biblically. I think we owe a great debt to Mark for standing for the truth and humbly speaking to the youth and pastors regarding the need to submit ourselves daily to the throne of God’s Grace (Jesus Christ)! He also deserves our prayers. All this cacophony and mindless meanderings, opinions, and “spin” needs to come to a halt. It simply amazes me how in the American culture one can point the finger and call something they hear and label it hate speech or comment that that is “intolerant” all the while are professing the same very thing; ironic indeed? Mark has my full support, God is certainly not done with him yet, He is only getting started. Mark and his style of leadership and way of doing church, along with the Acts 29 Network, speaks more clearer and more relavently to the post modern generation than any other church at this time, in my opinion!
All for Christ