Slice of Laodicea Slander Strikes Again: Pt I
September 28, 2006
Perhaps a confession is in order, a little transparency? I like transparency, authenticity, etc. And not that this may come as a surprise to many of you, but, here goes: Sometimes, I like pissing people off. I like rocking the boat. Sometimes I even enjoy getting a rise out of people. It’s certainly not my best trait, but…well, let’s just say I don’t think I’m on the slippery slope to hell because of it.
However, the fine folks over at Slice of Laodicea seem to think so. In Ingrid’s recent post, "On Hookahs, Emergents and Booze Aplenty," I’m referenced as a seminarian who is "living like the world and the devil." Now, this is not the first time I’ve been featured on this site. Check out the following articles: "Emergent Church: All Faith Traditions Emerging," "Inter-faith Dialogue," "Emerging Church - Declining Morals," and "Gay? Fine by them." So, in some ways this is nothing new. However, it seems this time that they’ve taken it a bit too far. For those of you who don’t feel like taking the time to go over and read the comments, let me quote just a few of the real nasty (and funny) ones:
- Those Emergent drunkards are giving us responsible Christian social drinkers a bad name.
- If you peruse through that blog you’ll see this guy Adam supports
homosexuality, is anti-Israel, and has quite the foul mouth. I think
there’s even a picture on there somewhere of his wife giving him the
finger. How lovely. - I can’t stand reading the comments to his blog: they remind me too much
of the empty heads and worldly hearts found on most "Christian" band
website forums. They all tempt me to anger. - I cannot help but think that Jesus would have thrown him and his
friends bodily out of the bar into the street. It’s one thing to reach
out to sinners, and yet another thing to be a Christian who is involved
in unfortunate besetting sin. It is another thing altogether, however,
to call one’s self a seminarian, that is, a candidate for the
pastorate, and behave in this way. What an insult to a holy God. - Not only is this guy not living as he should revealing the true fruit
of the Spirit, but he is blatantly disobeying the Word of God while
supposedly training to be an ordained preacher. This is a sad thing to
witness, but we can only rebuke him with the Word and hope that the
Lord will soften his heart and open his eyes to the truth. Otherwise he
will simply be an imposter and a terrible example of Godly living, for
which he will one day have to stand before God and give an account for.
I urge many of you to express these things on his blog so that he can
read them for himself, and don’t forget the Scripture! - {I have a special place in my heart for this comment - it comes from Chris P - he and I have gone back and forth since the creation of pomomusings - I’d actually love to meet him sometime…grab a beer…talk about life…what do you say Chris?} Good old Adam Cleaveland, I have the honor of being banned and reinstated on his blog more than anyone else over the last couple of years. His goal is always to shock. He is even too liberal for most emergents.
Check out the blogs on his links sidebar for an education in all that
is wrong with the post-modern movement. - This is extremely sad! I noticed that this seminary student listed
husband as one of his "hobbies". I clicked on it and was taken to a
site with his wedding pictures and his wife’s blog. She has a very
interesting personal statement of faith on her site. http://serendipity.blogs.com/writings/faith_statement.pdf
BTW she was also a seminary student. I was myself a young bride not
that awful long ago (give or take a decade). I want to weep for the
very long hard road they have stretched out in front of them. Unless
they allow God to touch their lives and soften their hearts there will
be nothing but heartbreak down the line for them. - wow Stephanie, thanks for linking to that personal statatement of
faith….it’s very depressing to read that. But I guess those two are
made for each other huh? How sad :( - I don’t recall anywhere in the Bible where God the Father was also
God the Mother…so I wonder whence this lady derives her "faith." If she does not know God the Father for Who He Is, then she and we are not members of the same Church. Pure and simple.
Anyway, you get the point. They start off bashing me, calling me an insult to God and then end up questioning my wife’s salvation. Tacky?
Anyway, I have no desire to attempt to have a "conversation" with Ingrid or her comrades. I tried to engage them before on one of their previous posts, and tried to leave a comment. However, Ingrid (or whoever moderates the comments at the site) wouldn’t allow my comment. This is not a group to be in conversation with, clearly - it’s simply not worth it.
In addition to the blog post and people’s very insightful comments, I was privileged to receive an email today from a "Gracie" who had the following word to share with me:
Dear Adam…Do you know what it’s like to live a holy and rightous life before the Lord? It seems that you have chosen the broad road that leads to hell. You don’t have any idea when you will die.. but I suspect that you are assuming that you will go to heaven. Repent and turn from your sin. Take the narrow road that leads to heaven. Gracie
I was chatting with a friend tonight and showed her this email and her response was, I thought, very fitting: "I’m glad that’s not MY religion." And this was a person whose faith and life I greatly respect. For any of you who think this is as ridiculous and scary as I do, don’t fear. Sarah and I have had fun with this today and are keeping our perspective with these types of comments. It’s funny, the people have no idea what was going on in that picture. We were smoking flavored tobacco in a fricking hookah, no drugs, nothing illegal. We were having a wonderful Wine & Dessert party with some friends from seminary. We had a few beers and a few of us shared some wonderful fellowship around the hookah. Besides, I was nowhere near being drunk.
So, should I put pictures like this up? Probably not. I am not an official spokesperson for Emergent, while the folks at Slice seem to think so. But with all the crap that they through at Emergent, posts like this one today probably don’t help. So, perhaps my desire to rock the boats and irritate some folks isn’t always the best thing. Perhaps I should try to stop.
But I think what scares me the most is the amount of people who actually read and agree with this. I think that I generally read stuff on this site and think to myself, "Thank God it’s only a small minority of Christians who actually think like this — who believe that THIS is what Christianity is about…" - but if the stats on my blog today are any indicator of how widespread this version of the faith is…I’m scared. I generally get around 800-1200 hits a day. Since Ingrid’s post, and as of 9.15pm this evening, I have received 3747 hits. I am praying that it is a Typepad error or something, but I don’t think it is. I think that there may be more people than we realize who believe this is what being a person of faith involves…seeking out and actively attacking people who are trying to live faithfully in the world and to seek out the kingdom of God.
It’s ridiculous really.
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
September 28th, 2006 at 9:59 pm
It’s people like them, God love ‘em, that turn people off to Christianity. Many of their comments could have come straight out of the film “SAVED”! So sorry you had to be the receiver of this crap. Adele
September 28th, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Years ago I received a call from a local pastor. Someone who had left our church said it was because I wouldn’t oppose drinking. He strongly warned me that this would be my downfall. He said, believe it or not, that it would be better for me to have an adulterous affair with my secretary than to not speak out against drinking.
Luther said sin is needful for humility. He even recommended sinning once in a while— overeating, overdrinking, oversleeping—to keep the balance for humility, and he practiced it! Here’s some of his advice when you are down and feeling tempted, straight from his own pen:
“Seek convivial company, feminine company, dine, dance, joke, and sing. Make yourself eat and drink even though food may be very distasteful. Fasting is the very worst expedient.” Luther gave three rules for dispelling despondency: the first is faith in Christ; the second is to get downright angry; the third is the love of a woman. I think that means sex. Music was high on his list too. Luther’s physician related that on one occasion he came with some friends for a party, with musical instruments, only to find Luther depressed; but when the others started singing, he was soon the life of the party. Also, his wife was a comfort to him when the Devil assaulted him in the night: ‘Then I turn to my Katie and say, “Forbid me to have such temptations, and recall me from such vain vexations” I think that means sex again! He was known to rant, drink, feast, party, and have sex. And these were spiritual disciplines for him, not just theologizing.
So keep ranting, partying, and theologizing. You are part of a good tradition! thus spoke churchpundit!
September 28th, 2006 at 10:49 pm
i wish i got featured on that site. i think if i ever get featured, that’ll be the day for my last post. i’ll walk out on top. it’s like the pinnacle of my blogging career. the world series. ingrid, if you read this, please sift through my stuff and try to find some heresy. if you can’t find anything that would be fitting, i can specifically write something if you’re looking for a specific topic.
September 28th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
“I don’t recall anywhere in the Bible where God the Father was also God the Mother…so I wonder whence this lady derives her ‘faith.’ If she does not know God the Father for Who He Is, then she and we are not members of the same Church. Pure and simple.”
Isaiah 66:13 - “As a mother comforts her child, so I will comfort you.”
Shirley Guthrie used to be fond of asking, “Do we really think that God is a great big penis up in heaven?” Give Sarah my congratulations on not being a part of the First Church of the Pharisees.
September 29th, 2006 at 12:25 am
I feel sick, and it’s not from the open Yuengling on my coffee table. I hate to bash other Christians of any stripe because God knows all of us humans have a lot to sort out, but Ingrid’s post made me hurt for the reputation she gives followers of Christ every bit as much as she claimed to hurt over Adam’s witness.
Sure I don’t agree with Adam a lot of the time. That’s why I like reading him.
I’m glad that God stretches out those maternal wings of His toward all of us. Even Ingrid and Adam. Even me.
September 29th, 2006 at 12:27 am
ouch! This is part of reason that I question the need for ‘churches’ today. Why are we so harsh! That is not who Jesus or God was … there was/is always love whenever He rebukes someone. You have a right to be angry, this is not the way that you would treat someone who is not a Christian then don’t treat someone who is a Christian - it isn’t what Jesus would have done so why are they!! Grrrr… makes me mad. But we are called to love but I don’t have to like them or their attitude!!
September 29th, 2006 at 3:01 am
Yucky. I’m so sorry that those people have to be such total hate spewing self righteous asses. For what it’s worth, I totally appreciate your willingness to push the envelope and piss off a bunch of pharisees. And your wife totally rocks…middle finger and all ;) I’m sure they’re very proud of themselves giving virtual high fives for being so ‘righteous’. Well, good for them, good thing I don’t judge their eternal condition
September 29th, 2006 at 3:29 am
Icky people.
I’m sad to say I once profiled others in the same way… God have mercy on us all.
September 29th, 2006 at 6:52 am
The moderator over there didn’t accept my comment either. I think I may have commented about having seen paintings, etc. that picture Jesus sitting around with most of the apostles…gasp…drinking wine!
September 29th, 2006 at 7:11 am
I think that most people observing and criticizing this post are missing what is actually going on here. This is not about right or wrong, moral authority, or “emergent” theology; this is a good old-fashioned case of narcissism.
Don’t be fooled. Mr. Cleaveland couldn’t be more excited that he was attacked on another blog. It gives his page more attention. Why would there be any reason to post the pictures that he posted other than to get a reaction out of people? The pictures served no purpose. Was the point that people in seminary party? Wow. That’s deep and postmodern.
Even more than his self-involvement is my concern that he doesn’t even seem to understand in the least why these pictures upset people. Or does he? He did say that he enjoys “pissing people off.” Most people should understand, though, that pissing people off does no good if it is not done with a point. His point was apparently to start an argument in his comment section.
Cleaveland knows full well what he is doing. He repeatedly puts up inflamatory posts and acts surprised and shocked and offended when people respond.
I would also like to point out that in this post he makes a reference to the fact that he has been banned from this blog before for his comments, and that he has no desire to have a conversation with those people. How many times has he himself banned commenters from his blog and absolutely shut off the possibility of an intelligent conversation in place of, “I’m right and you’re an idiot.”
The point is this: Mr. Cleaveland is a narcissist (does that qualify as slander?), and by responding to this ridiculousness (like I am guilty of at this moment), we are fueling his fire and giving him more and more reasons–3,747 of them–to keep doing what he does.
I don’t care anymore if he smokes and drinks, I think that frequently causing arguments where there are none is a much more distasteful and offensive thing to do.
September 29th, 2006 at 10:43 am
Adam - you posted links to “slice”, but I think I’ll resist giving hits to such folk.
It is interesting that self-appointed “Faith Police” would be issuing citations. Did they follow the Biblical model (Matthew 18) and try to contact you first - before posting your “sins” for the “church”?
You’ve likely gotten more hits recently because of searches on “Emergent”, along with using the names of locations and persons in the Emergent dialogue. And there are your regular visitors. Don’t give all the credit to slice.
Your portrait has been painted as a caricature - with certain features well out of proportion. My observation is that you keep in good touch with reality and spirituality. I was once in seminary as well, and our three are teenagers. Talk about expectations (way out of proportion to reality) from others!
Don’t pay much attention to the hit meter. I remember a 7th & 8th grade basketball coach (my favorite teacher and coach) who always told us to not pay any attention to the scoreboard. “Play hard all the time…If I see you looking up at the scoreboard during the game, I’ll call timeout and put you on the bench so you can stare at it all you want.” Don’t let slice, or any other self-righteous folk put you on the bench.
September 29th, 2006 at 10:47 am
dude, i’m so sorry you are targeted in this. know (and i’m sure you do b/c this is so freakin’ ridiculous) that your voice is seriously ‘preciated.
peace,
holly
September 29th, 2006 at 11:00 am
DRM - Adam has every right to defend himself and it should be pretty clear why he’s a littele pissed about what people have said about him and his wife. And his last name is Walker Cleaveland, at least have the decency to use his correct name.
September 29th, 2006 at 11:13 am
And his last name is Walker Cleaveland, at least have the decency to use his correct name.
Haha…I loved this comment for some reason.
September 29th, 2006 at 11:14 am
i tried to comment that sarah’s statement of faith sounded trinitarian to me…and i barred from commenting. i even read the “rules” page before doing so. sketchy i must say.
September 29th, 2006 at 11:16 am
In those new hits you got you can count me, I usually hang around Slice of a Clanging Cymbol to see whatever they are calling out or attacking, so I can find books, speakers, musicians and bloggers who, after sifting out the general crazies that even they notice, have intellegent thoughts on life and faith that I can enjoy reading and dialouging with.
I’ve tried to hold a conversation over there as well, the most frustraiting is when they let a post through, someone responds thinking they have stumped you and then your second response doesn’t get posted so it does look like one of their followers really got you. It’s frustraiting!
September 29th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Yah, Sarah tried to comment last night as well - but that’s the thing. They don’t want to engage in conversation. They don’t want to hear the other side.
My wife’s statement of faith is one of the best I’ve read…very trinitarian indeed.
September 29th, 2006 at 11:23 am
Is it Trinitarian to believe in God the Mother? I don’t think so. Just because it is “like a mother” doesn’t mean that there is “God the Mother”. It istotally inconsistent with Scripture.
I think Matt Mc stated it perfectly what I couldn’t state myself.
September 29th, 2006 at 11:30 am
“Sometimes, I like pissing people off. I like rocking the boat. Sometimes I even enjoy getting a rise out of people.”
Amen. I like to think of my blog as the garden fork that comes in to break up the hard-packed soil, so that others can come in and plant the seeds. I find there’s a lot of soil out there that needs some breaking up. Keep up the good work.
September 29th, 2006 at 12:14 pm
What about all the serious seminary students (including myself) who were slandered by your depictions of “seminary” as a place where alcohol and hookahs are representative of what happens there, Adam? Although I can relate to the following sentiment-
‘I think that I generally read stuff on this site and think to myself, “Thank God it’s only a small minority of Christians who actually think like this — who believe that THIS is what Christianity is about…”‘
-it’s not Slice of Laodicea that usually comes to mind. It’s Adam Walker Cleaveland’s Pomomusings. “Thank God it’s only a small minority of Christians who actually think like this — who believe that [alcohol and hookahs] are what [seminary] is all about.”
September 29th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
Way to go Timbo on this response. Keep up responses like this. :)
September 29th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
sheesh, trolls egging on trolls? yes, and i know i’m being trollish for even pointing this out but please…
oh, one more thing. While Jesus is fully human, fully divine…I don’t remember our Triune God being classified as one gender or the other, so chill everyone.
September 29th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Well we know Jesus was male, God the Father is what it says from God’s Word and God the Holy Spirit. It only makes sense that the Triune God be classified as male. There are no references to the natures of the Trinity being female and all references of the natures of the Trinity are male. So to project female onto the the Trinity is just incorrect.
One mustn’t project onto God’s Word what is not described at all.
September 29th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
How can you call me a troll? Isn’t that a subjective term? Isn’t part of a discussion to be open to state or hear what people think on a topic as long as it is honest? Unless one wants to be closed minded. It seems to me if one says they are “Emergent”, “Postmodern”, etc. than hearing an opposing opinion wouldn’t get you or others like Adam “so bent out of shape”. That is assuming the troll comment was directed toward myself. (I’m not a troll) but for the sake of argument lets asssume I am what is the big deal if one states an opposite opinion and gives rationales for that opinion and points out inconsistencies in the opposing opinion for proper learning and balance? We all need to learn and I do many times myself. The “troll labeling” must stop when the attitude is one of care, learning and openess. Otherwise one needs to stop saying they are “openminded, balanced, progressive, postmodern, Emergent and the like”.
September 29th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Q: so if the triune God is male, then why bother with the female at all?
and BTW, ruach (hebrew noun) for Spirit is feminine and pneuma (greek noun)is gender neutral…just some food for thought. A God who sends the pneuma to dwell in us or the ruach for that matter. Also, most references to the Trinity are extra-biblical…the result of some hefty debates in the first few centuries of Christianity. While these creeds and councils are authoratative in my life, I also am aware of the cultural context in which they were conceived.
Ok, enough church history blah, blah. peace, out.
September 30th, 2006 at 9:28 am
last comment…not emergent, never said i was.
October 1st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
“So, perhaps my desire to rock the boats and irritate some folks isn’t always the best thing. Perhaps I should try to stop.”
Don’t stop being yourself - and embrace God in all the ways you do, as Father, as Mother, as Being. When we limit the ways we allow ourselves to experience and know God, we are limiting God. To think of God in solely male terms inhibits ourselves from experiencing all apsects of God - not just the male qualities.
By the way, if you haven’t read She Who Is by Elizabeth Johnson, I highly recommend it.
October 2nd, 2006 at 12:31 pm
I don’t see references to the Trintiy as being “extra-biblical”. I will stick to my original statement. I just don’t see in Scripture the feminine in the Trinity. The purpose of the female was that God created male and female at creation. It isn’t myself limiting it Lindsay but the recognition of what God’s Word says or doesn’t say about “God Mother”. There is no reference to God Mother in the Bible so any reference to thatis adding to Scripture.
October 2nd, 2006 at 11:58 pm
Keep up the good work, Adam. Heaven knows it’s hard, but ignore the judgmental whenever you can (or better yet, pray for them). It’s even possible that a few of them have your best interests at heart but just haven’t developed the best worldview as of yet. BTW, my visit didn’t come from Slice but from another EC site (although I’ve had the displeasure of stumbling upon Slice before). If you get time and want to add to the conversation on our blog (dwellingplace.blogsource.com), we could always use a few more troublemakers. :-)
October 3rd, 2006 at 12:30 am
haha, at least they still let you join the argument. I was banned from Slice a few months ago.
October 4th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
ick.
October 5th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
I hate that site, yet I can’t stop reading. Its one of my daily internet stops just to watch the train wreck.
I have a new fun game though. About the time I had my fourth or fifth well-reasoned comment non-approved I started to post satirical hyper-fundy comments. For example, condemning them for making an allusion to A Boy Named Sue for tacitly endorsing drunkeness, “the devil’s music” and other ridiculous things. So far every one of them has been approved.
November 29th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
I’m still looking for a well written site that expounds on theology that is to the right of my usual readings just to learn another perspective. Haven’t found it yet.
Why is it that right leaning political and religious essays tend to be name calling and not following clear thought and explanation?
I’d have some respect for Ingrid’s views if she got out from behind the microphone and actually visited some of the churches she criticizes and sees what is good and bad about them first hand.