Israel does GREAT at…
July 23, 2006
…breaking humanitarian laws. If there is one thing I’ll give the State of Israel credit for, is that she is amazing at breaking and violating international and humanitarian laws.
While Israel continues to violate these laws, what will the rest of the world do? Will the US, Israel’s closet ally, have the nerve to call Israel on these actions and violations? The UN can forever say that Israel is breaking international laws, but can the UN actually DO anything about it?
And amidst all of this, we continue to pray for the innocent Lebanese who are dying, being injured and displaced and losing the infrastructure of their nation, and for the innocent Israelis who are suffering through this conflict as well. And let us not forget about the Palestinians or Gaza during this time. The world’s attention is on Lebanon at this time, Israel has called an ‘emergency draft’ (??), but we can’t forget about the Palestinians…
…and let us not forget who is supplying Israel with its bombs to kill Lebanese…what the hell?
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. God, can you not intervene, can you not bring justice? Do you sit idly by as 364 Lebanese civilians have been killed in 12 days? What are we to do, we who are half a world, or another whole world away, as we sit in our air-conditioned coffee shops with beauty and luxury all around us and no fear of losing our homes or our lives? While those in Lebanon flee from their homes, not knowing what lies ahead for them the next day or any day in the future? “Wake up, LORD! Robe yourself with strength! Rouse yourself as in the days of old when you slew Egypt, the dragon of the Nile. Are you not the same today, the one who dried up the sea, making a path of escape when you saved your people?” But somehow amidst the rubble and evil, you are still speaking your promise of redemption: “Yet [Lebanon] says, “The Lord has deserted us; the Lord has forgotten us.” “Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child? Can she feel no love for a child she has borne? But even if that were possible, I would not forget you! See, I have written your name on my hand. Ever before me is a picture of [Lebanon’s] walls in ruins. Soon your descendants will come back, and all who are trying to destroy you will go away…Those who have been ransomed by the LORD will return to [Lebanon], singing songs of everlasting joy. Sorrow and mourning will disappear, and they will be overcome with joy and gladness.” Lord, teach us how to pray, show us how to live in this broken world, show us how we are to join with you in bringing shalom to Lebanon and Israel and all other places of the world where brokenness and evil reign. We long for your Kingdom to come.
July 23rd, 2006 at 3:18 pm
I just hope it doesn’t occur to the extent of the events in 1982.
However I do applaud Israel for the effort they have taken to notify civilians before attacking by literring the area of information that they are about to bomb, even if this puts their soldiers at risk.
July 23rd, 2006 at 3:36 pm
How can you applaud Israel for notifying civilians when they started their attack by bombing bridges and roads? Israel has completely mishandled this.
The Greens summed it up nicely. . .
Greens based their demand on the following:
*Israel’s attacks violate Fourth Geneva Convention prohibitions against “collective punishment,” i.e., the retaliatory killing of civilians, “targeted” assassinations, and destruction of the infrastructure of an occupied territory. Israel’s use of U.S.-made weapons violates U.S. laws against deploying such weapons for use against civilians.
*The attacks cannot be justified as a response to the capture of an Israeli soldier who was in Gaza as part of the occupation force. (The current exchange of violence began with Israeli shelling that killed eight Palestinian civilians on a Gaza beach.) Israel itself is holding thousands of Palestinian civilians, including over 400 Palestinian children and 120 women, in inhumane conditions and has reportedly subjected some detainees to torture.
*Israel and the U.S. have refused to recognize Hamas as the legitimate democratically elected government of the Palestinian territories; the current attacks are clearly meant to destroy Hamas in the Palestinian territories and Hezbollah in Lebanon, and to punish Palestinian civilians for having elected Hamas.
*The current escalation of hostilities is a result of Israel’s illegal occupation (with U.S. support) of Palestinian lands and daily brutality and killing visited on Palestinians, land grabs and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, cutoff of water and electricity, destruction of homes and businesses, economic strangulation, and conversion of the Palestinian territories into heavily guarded bantustans sealed off with a ’security’ wall.
*The Olmert government’s current actions, especially deployment of troops into Lebanon, risk a greater regional conflict that will threaten global peace as other nations become involved in the conflict, and will also hinder efforts to effect U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq. Aside from the U.S. and Israel itself, most of the world understands the attacks as illegal Israeli military aggression.
July 23rd, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Ben, the leaflets are pointless. As Andrew mentioned, what good does it do when they bomb the only roads and bridges people can use to escape?
July 23rd, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Why isn’t the UN appalled that Hizbollah was allowed to build rocket launchers in civilian areas?
And this under the nose and with the approval of UN ‘peacekeepers’? Where is the outrage over this?
And why no outrage from you about the Iranians who supply bombs and rockets to rain down on cities like Nazereth?
The UN is a biased joke. They allow the genocide in Danfur to go on and on with little or no action.
Why hasn’t the UN toured the devestation in Haifa and Nazereth? Why dont they call the hundreds of thousands of people in Israel running for their lives from the Upper Galilee and Haifa ‘refugees”?
Because they are biased toward toward the Arab Islamist agenda, if the peacekeepers had done their jobs, there would never be missles launched at Haifa from apartment buildings.
Does Hizbollah notify civilians before raining down bombs? Do they use human shields and build in civilian areas?
Think Adam. If there is to be peace and justice you must hold Hizbollah accountable as well as the UN.
If you lived in a tiny nation 8 miles across and 70 miles long surrounded by people who openly call for your genocide and supplied by the limitless petro dollars of Iran what would you do? Don’t be so quick to judge.
July 23rd, 2006 at 6:07 pm
Adam, perhaps the US does not have the nerve to call Israel to task for fear that we would stand accused of violations ourselves.
July 23rd, 2006 at 7:50 pm
Israel’s first duty is to it’s own citizens, who now huddle in bomb shelters–not to it’s enemies who want nothing more than to see her destroyed. Kyriat Shmona was just hit with another salvo of Hesbollah rockets. Humanitarian laws couldn’t prevent that. Only Israel can prevent that.
Yes, south Beirut is in rubble, but the Hesbollah rocket salvos continue unabated. The IAF, one of the most powerful airforces in the world, has so far been unable to stop them. I am sure it comes as quite a shock to them too! It shouldn’t have, as Hesbollah has had years to bury itself below the ground, and cannot be reached from the air. Now Israel has no choice but to send in ground forces.
For years Israel has warned of Hesbollah and demanded that the Lebanese army enforce its sovereignty of south Lebanon. It has appealed to your precious U.N. and they too ignored it. The time for crocodile tears was then, not now. Now you pray and sing psalms. But if you didn’t care then, your pleas now ring hollow.
And yet the fact that only 350 “civilians” have been killed is a testament to the IAF’s precision, not to it’s flaunting of humanitarian laws. How many of those civilians are actually fighters we can only guess. But I assume many. So long as Hesbollah rockets continue to fall into Israeli cities, the IAF will continue to hit southern Lebanon. It’s that simple. Stop the rockets attacks and give up the two soldiers, and Israel will cease its fire.
You say it is “collective punishment”? I disagree. Israel has given them ample warning. And yet, even if it is, then so be it. If I am “collectively responsible” for slavery 150 years ago –long before I was even born –then so are the residents of south Lebanon collectively responsible for Hesbollah. You can’t have it both ways.
And one more thing. Have you noticed that it is exactly those lands from which Israel has withdrawn that the attacks are coming from? To quote one of your NPR Liberal icons Danier Schorr:
“In the year 2000, Israel exited from south Lebanon as a peaceful gesture. This past August, Israel left Gaza as a peaceful act. It appears now that these were taken by the jihadists not as gestures of peace, but of weakness.
And it appears that the threat of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that Israel would be wiped off the map was not just rhetoric. According to American intelligence, Hamas in Gaza and Hizbullah in Lebanon have an agreement for joint attacks on Israel.”
But you cheer Hesbollah. Goodie for you.
July 23rd, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Jake,
I would be interested to hear if the people who write this blog will respond to your well articulated post.
You make excellent points as do a number of other commenters.
I think dialogue with different viewpoints is a good path towards progressive thinking, I asked some questions also.
I will look back in here to see if any of these points have been responded to.
It will be interesting to see if its just about ranting over ‘ The Jews’ or some sort of constructive exchange of ideas that the author is interested in.
July 23rd, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Hezbollah does GREAT at breaking humanitarian laws. If there is one thing I’ll give Hezbollah credit for, is that they are amazing at breaking and violating international and humanitarian laws.
While Hezbollah continues to violate these laws, what will the rest of the world do? Will Iran, Hezbollah’s closet ally, have the nerve to call Hezbollah on these actions and violations? The UN can forever say that Hezbollah is breaking international laws, but can the UN actually DO anything about it?
July 23rd, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Hey I am not saying I am happy with either parties. However when you have impending danger at hand, even if all the gas stations are blown up and bridges are out, you can get the heck out of dodge especially when you get some notification. Think about it. Israel is violating so many things why not just go the extra round and not notify individuals. I mean hey if they are systematically taking out civilians why not get the biggest number they can. But no they are doing some warning. Which is helping to keep deaths down.
Also Israel is convinced this the actions against Leb. and Pal. are a necessary for securing the safety of their people. TO the point it seems to be hysteria at times. But hey it is reasonable people will do whatever they believe they need to ensure their own safety. Even if it means violating Geneva.
People will do things under perceived pressure that they would not do other times. My comment about the dropping of warning literature was primarily about that they are showing a strain of compassion that is unusual when people are caught up into a mass hysteria.
And by the way I am not a fan of Israel. Just trying to provide some feedback from the otherside, even if I do think they are dead wrong in their actions.
July 23rd, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Who told Jake he was “collectively responsible” for slavery and what does it have to do with anything we’re talking about? And exactly who is “cheering Hezbollah?” I haven’t read a single post that condones Hezbollah’s attacks or denies Israel’s right to defend itself. Perhaps we could confine our rebuttals to assertions that are actually made.
I assert that there are appropriate responses to provocation and there are inappropriate responses. For example, terrorists in Iraq have made videos of themselves barbarically beheading American citizens. I do no believe that gives us the right to behead Iraqi citizens (or even terrorists) in return.
So where is the line with you Jake? Should Israel use chemical weapons to wipe out the population in southern Lebanon? Perhaps they should just use nuclear weapons to destroy all life in areas miles in diameter. Or perhaps they could take a lesson from Rwanda and start hacking off the arms of Lebanese women and children–would that be justifiable by you, Jake?
That one side of a conflict does not value life is not license for the other to do the same.
The poet Wendell Berry asked a very poignant question several years ago. And he answered the only way a child of God could: “How many deaths of other people‚Äôs children by bombing or starvation are we willing to accept in order that we may be free, affluent, and (supposedly) at peace? To that question I answer: None. Please, no children. Don‚Äôt kill any children for my benefit.”
July 24th, 2006 at 12:37 am
>>>Perhaps we could confine our rebuttals to assertions that are actually made.
Andrew,
if we’re going to confine our rebuttals to assertions that are actually made, as you suggest, then maybe you can show me where I said anything about not valuing life, or using chemical weapons, or dropping nukes and destroying all life for miles in every direction. I scrolled up to check just to make sure, and it wasn’t there. So I don’t feel the need to rebut it, nor even comment on Wendell Berry because you are arguing with a strawman, not rebutting any of my assertions. Except for one, my comment about collective responsibility. You wanted to know what it had to do with anything. I only mentioned it because Israel is accused at every turn of using “collective punishment.” It is a favorite catch phrase of the anti-Israel lobby. And it’s being applied liberally to the current conflict. So I think my comment was relevant. And one more assertion of mine you addressed– yes, I have been told on more than one occassion that I’m collectively responsible for the sins of my ancestors, especially slavery. President Clinton even went to Africa to apologize on my behalf, as I recall.
July 24th, 2006 at 8:01 am
Jake,
Please re-read my post. I did not say you supported any of the atrocities I listed, but rather questioned where “the line” was with you. When responding to charge of collective punishment you replied “And yet, even if it is, then so be it.” I take this to mean you endorse the bombing of civilian infrastructure (and civilians) as Israel started their attacks by doing. My still unanswered question is how far can Israel go in your mind?
Jake, I’m not arguing with a straw man, I’m arguing with you. Just because my first response focused on one of your assertions doesn’t make the argument invalid.
There are international laws against “collective punishment.” It is not a catch-phrase, it’s an honest and serious accusation.
Just to clarify, collective punishment is a term describing the punishment of a group of people for the crime of few. It is contradictory to the modern concept of due process, where each individual receives separate treatment based on their individual circumstances — as they relate to the crime in question.
I’m still wondering how it is you switched that around to “collective responsibility.” Or is a more pathological thing with you? Are you also against collective farming, collective nouns, Collective Soul?
Disregarding my better judgment against of spawning a pointless tangent, I’ll say your reaction to President Clinton’s 1998 remarks in Africa is just silly.
Clinton’s words were: “Going back to the time before we were even a nation, European-Americans received the fruits of the slave trade, and we were wrong in that.” Most non-partisan responses chided Mr. Clinton for such benign words when the opportunity provided the opportunity for so much more.
Were you also so offended by President Bush’s remarks in 2003 when he said: ‘Small men took on the powers and airs of tyrants and masters. Years of unpunished brutality and bullying and rape produced a dullness and hardness of conscience. Christian men and women became blind to the clearest commands of their faith and added hypocrisy to injustice…My nation’s journey toward justice has not been easy, and it is not over, The racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation.’
I rather doubt it.
July 24th, 2006 at 8:53 am
Andrew,
again I’ll confine my response your rebuttals of things I actually said. There is no such thing as “civilian infrastructure” in a war. That is just another term invented by you folks for the purpose of demonizing Israel. The reason for that is because during a war this infrastructure is used by enemy forces as well, not just civilians. Thus it is a fair target. That term (much like “collective punishment”) is another one that is being tossed around liberally by the anti-Israel lobby. It shows a lack of critical thinking that you would mindlessly repeat it here.
Israel may continue to attack targets — including your “civilian infrastructure” — if they believe they are military targets. However, under no circumstances may they target Lebanese civilians. That is where the line is drawn. The fact that only 350+ purported civilians have been killed in the extensive bombing campaign is proof that civilians are not being targeted. But if civilians are killed, as they are in any war, then the Lebanese are just as responsible as the Israelis for those deaths, because they are collectively responsible for Hesbollah. They created Hesbollah, they support it, they defend it. “I am Hesbollah”, and “We are all Hesbollah” say the placards at anti-Israel “peace” rallies. Sadly, there is a kernel of ironic truth to that.
July 24th, 2006 at 8:57 am
Oh and how about all the aid Israel is funding into Lebannon right now by providing food, water, and in some cases shelter to the Lebannese in the wake of some of their attacks? If the war was to systematically wipe out Lebannon incuding its civilians… well that idea doesn’t jive with the care Israel seems to be giving.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:48 am
and Hezbollah doesn’t break international law by launching 14 rockets on Northern Israel. Give me an ever lovin’ break. This is ridiculous. So Hezbollah are innocent Lebanese? Give me a break. Your over the top attack on Israel rather than the ones Hezbollah who originally started this by building up their military strength by way of Syria and Iran. If Hezbollah in thefirst place didn’t begin this ridiculous way we wouldn’t be hear. The Arab and Muslim community seems to me more on Israel’s sidethanever before. One example was a Muslim who happens to be a professor at the Univ. of Maryland and a member of the Anwar Sadat Institute. He mentioned how “Hezbollah has the bigger blame as apposed to Israel and the Israel must defend itself against Hezbollah who has been building up with military and WMD for years”. He also said “What should Israel continue to let them get stronger.” This was from a Muslim and a strng adherent to Islam. You clearly are messed up and don’t understand in any way the situation over there. I don’t care if you have been to the Middle East. Going there and understanding the situation are two totally different things.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:15 am
Andrew,
more on the so-called “civilian infrastructure. From Haaretz, a LEFTWING publication:
“Israeli Air Force fighter jets were dropping 23 tons of explosives on the Hezbollah’s so-called alternative bunker. Hidden under an innocent-looking mosque, the bunker had been built by Iranian engineers who specialized in the construction of protected subterranean building for their country’s nuclear facilities.”
and
“Hezbollah has built special rooms inside ordinary residential buildings used to launch rockets, but they didn’t know that we know that, and were surprised.”
and
“For years, and while carefully maintaining strict compartmentalization, Hezbollah built up a dense system of “secret houses,” in which rockets and missiles aimed at numerous Israeli targets were hidden.”
Also according to Haaretz, more than 2,000 rockets have been fired into Israel.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741803.html
See, even Lefties get some common sense when it’s they who are actually being fired on.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:16 am
DH, you don’t read my posts, do you? Not once have I made a connection between Hezbollah = innocent Lebanese? When I mention innocent Lebanese, I refer to the 300+ civilians who, yes, are innocent - those who have been caught in the middle of this war.
Please read more carefully before launching into such strong critiques.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:29 am
It would seem from this comment board that as long as people refuse to learn about the political situation in Lebanon and the purpose of Hizbollah, there will be no real understanding of the current crisis.
I reccomend “From Beruit to Jerusalem” by Thomas Friedman. It explains the psyche of the arab nation states and terrorist groups like Hizbollah, and why Israel responds the way it does.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:54 am
Adam, and how can you tell that they are innocent when the Hezbollah terrorists dress in civilian garb?
July 24th, 2006 at 11:37 am
The last time Adam posted about the situation in Lebanon, I referred to two articles from the New Yorker, written TWO YEARS ago, that describe the work Hezbollah has been up to and the ethos the group supports.
I still think they’re worth reading. Here’s Part1 and here’s Part 2.
***
I think it’s a bit naive to talk of “innocent” Lebanese. There are plenty of Hezbollah agents and/or sympathizers who are indistinguishable from “citizens” (a loaded term, don’t you think?). Granted, there must have been deaths of innocent people in Lebanon, but let’s not imagine that a great number of them could not have been active members of the destructive, abhorrent party called Hezbollah.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Kellen, I never mentioned the term “citizens.” I was speaking of Lebanese civilians; I think it’s a pretty outlandish claim to say “let’s not imagine that a great number of them could not have been active members of…Hezbollah.” That is NOT what the news is reporting. These are civilians. Innocent civilians caught amidst the horrors of war.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Lebanese Children Receive Free Medical Care in Israel
by Y-Love // July 24th, 2006
Arab World, Israel, Regional, Coexistence, Interfaith, Philanthropy
The Jerusalem Post reports today of a kiddush Hashem being done in Tel ha’Shomer at Sheba Hospital:
Lebanese children and adults wounded in the Hizbullah-Israeli crossfire in Lebanon have been invited to receive free treatment at Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer. The cost will be paid by Jewish and non-Jewish donors in Israel and abroad, hospital director-general Prof. Zev Rothstein said on Sunday.
CNN (I watched on the video feeds at CNN Pipeline) reported about IDF soldiers who transferred an injured 47-year-old Lebanese woman from Maroun al-Ras to a waiting MDA ambulance after she was critically injured in the intense crossfire there. She was transferred to Ziv Hospital in Tzfat.
Now we have an entire hospital pledging free care to Lebanese victims.
“We are not to blame for this war. We don’t ask who is to blame,” said Rothstein. “We have an open Jewish heart. Our aim is to save lives and reduce misery. We don’t hate like the terrorists,” he added.
“It is better for a Lebanese family to hear that Israelis saved their lives rather than for them to teach their children that they should kill Israelis. Our humanitarian care shows the difference between us and them.”
Humanitarian treatment for Lebanese victims of the war will not come at the expense of Israeli patients, said the hospital director-general. “Israelis gain by the fact that we have experience treating patients from around the world and the region with all kinds of conditions. We have extra beds, including in intensive care and rehabilitation.”
Well that’s just great. But what about after they get better? These people are homeless and starving! What about their other needs?
“We have housing for Lebanese families and food at no cost.”
Impressive and refreshing to hear. A beautiful way to be a light to the world.
A huge yasher koach to them. Chazak u’baruch.
July 24th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
Semantics. I meant “civilians” — mis-typed it as “citizens.” My bad.
And I meant what I said. The word “civilians” works for us, because here there are “civilians” and there are “military personnel.” In Lebanon and elsewhere in the Near East, I don’t think those distinctions hold up quite so neatly as the New York Times (THE news??) et. al. would have us think.
July 24th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
I still echo Timbo’sentiment. How does the news let alone us know they are “innocent” when Hezbollah dress in civilian garb like Timbo and KP mentions? Also, just because the news refers to them as “innocent” doesn’t mean they are totally or that ALL of the 300 are. Are there innocent Lebanese and Israeli civilians being hurt? yes but to project in a definitive way that ALL 300 are without a doubt innocent I feel is an hasty generalization in light of the facts of how Hezbollah opperates.
July 24th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
A couple of quibbles from Andrew’s first post.
1) “*Israel’s attacks violate Fourth Geneva Convention prohibitions against “collective punishment,” i.e., the retaliatory killing of civilians…”
There is absolutely no evidence that Israel is intentionally targeting civilian populations in any way, shape or form. So it makes zero sense to claim these deaths are “retaliatory”. As has been pointed out quite frequently above, the sheer magnitude of Israel’s air and ground weaponry being brought to bear on southern Lebanon means that the relatively low number of casualties is an indication that Israel is trying hard to avoid the loss of innocent life. Whether they are trying hard enough may be debateable, but is is puerile to accuse them of mass murder with nothing but anti-semitism to bolster your case.
“*The attacks cannot be justified as a response to the capture of an Israeli soldier who was in Gaza as part of the occupation force.”
The attacks on Lebanon are in reponse to the capture of 2 soldiers who were in Israeli territory, so this obviously doesn’t apply to the main emphasis of this post. Nor does it apply to the response in Gaza since the soldier wasn’t part of an occupying force (the Israelis having left Gaza to the Palestinians, if you care to remember) and I believe wasn’t even in Gaza. And ironically, you seem to think the “occupation” justifies any activity on the Palestinian’s part, regardless of whether or not such activity violates international law or stems from the quid-pro-quo mentality you claim others are supporting. Is hypocrisy outlawed by Geneva?
“*Israel and the U.S. have refused to recognize Hamas as the legitimate democratically elected government of the Palestinian territories”
This is also incorrect. The US and Israel have recognized Hamas as the legitimately elected government of the Palestinian territories. But just because a government was democratically elected, it does not mean that either the US or Israel are required to provide aid or treat a terrorist organization as anything less than a terrorist organization. By your logic, if Kim Jong Il somehow won a popular vote in North Korea, the US would have to automatically support him in “reuniting” the Korean peninsula. Democracy in one country does not obligate another to support that democratic decision.
“*The current escalation of hostilities is a result of Israel’s illegal occupation (with U.S. support) of Palestinian lands”
You’re right. This has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal acts of terrorist organizations that have, and have had since their inception, the stated goal of the destruction of Israel, who have intentionally targeted civilians and who have a blind, seeting hatred for their neighbors that prevents them from even placing Israel on the map. Grow up, man. Its obvious that both sides have increasingly upped the ante over the last decades. Neither side alone is responsible for anything and to claim otherwise is just plain stupid. I can’t think of any other word for it.
July 24th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Question: why did Hezbollah stockpile 13,000 Iranian made rockets in the 5 years since Israel’s withdrawl . . . to be legitimate partners in a peaceful middle east?
Question 2: why did Hezbollah invade their neighbor Israel kill several soldiers and kidnap several others . . . to be legitimate partners ina peaceful middle east?
Question 3: why does Hezbollah stock their weapons and para-military infrastructure in the middle of civilian neighborhoods . . . to be legitimate partners in a peacful Lebannon?
The lopsided rhetoric that persists on this site does nothing for peace. This kind of rhetoric only promotes blindness and hate . . .
July 24th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
So Hamas gets to keep firing rockets into Israel just because it got elected? lol! Good one.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
May God grant them peace of heart. They are all doing attrocious things, they are all harming others. Neither looks to be backing down.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
why have so many of these responses refused to deal with the facts of the situation? no one is saying that hizbollah are not bad guys, or that Israel does not have some sort of legal right to rescue it’s missing soldiers. however, every viable news source from the area, including scores of lebanese christians and lebanese churches, are reporting massive bombings. israel has promised to bomb ten buldings for every one hezbollah rocket. infrastructure, roads and buildings have been bombed. the question here is “is this response moral?”. it is right ti point to hezbollah rockets. but hezbollah has killed maybe dozens of israelis, many of them arab israelis who the government has REFUSED TO ENTER SHELTERS!!! while the israelis have killed over 300 lebanese, some of whom may be hezbollah, some not, and literally destroyed the lives of so many more by destroying what little they had.
I cannot see how this response can be justified and can see no explanation for why people are defending except for ignorance or racism. What if lebanon had carpet bombed israel for the hundreds of prisoners from their nation Israel holds with no explanation or charges. Hezbollah is a terrorist orginization? fine. Then treat them like criminals. instead many of these people, some may be hezbollah some not, are held as pows with no trial. Treating an enemy immorally is not justified by that enemies imorrality. at least not in a christian ethical structure. The fact is that we in this country fear arabs right now, and so while we naturally defend israel, we also turn a blind eye to when they are making very wrong mistakes.
BESIDES, even if Israels response is somehow to be construed as moral, where is the cry of concern for the innocent? people are so quick to hassle adam, but maybe one reason to feel more pain for lebanon then israel is the HUNDREDS more dead there. that would be a pretty good reason. I personally have been pouring over the reports praying for the dead on both sides. and as defenders of the innocent of israel, where is the outcry over the many arab israelis who have been denied shelter access. a few days ago a brother and sister were killed in a northern village when there is a shelter a few miles away that the villagers are not allowed to go to. and there is no shelter being built there. is that fair? perhaps the the bad guys here are the violence and anger that fuel this, that lebanese and israelis alike are guilty for allowing to fester. maybe, just maybe, there are victims on both sides. if that is the case, one could see the 200 million dollars so far at least in damage done in southern lebanon as a tragedy as well.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:23 pm
Wow, so much to respond to, after a long day it’s hard to know where to begin.
It’s been said that wisdom is the ability to hold two completely opposing thoughts in your head at the same time. While I don‚Äôt claim the former, I see a lot are unwilling or unable to perform the latter.
To extrapolate support for Hezbollah from the condemnation of Israel’s botched response is simply wrong. To list Hezbollah’s offenses as defense of Israel is also wrong, because Israel is not a terrorist organization.
There are several organizations that agree with Jake that there ‚Äúis no such thing as “civilian infrastructure” in a war,‚Äù but to list them would be too inflammatory.
I’m not sure that counting the missiles fired at Israel bolsters your argument. Yes, I heard on the news today that 2000 had been fired—and that Israel has so far responded with 20,000 artillery shells.
I’m surprised to find on a blog like this that there are disagreements about the existence of civilians or even innocents in this conflict. When the reports are that 1/3rd of the 300 or so Lebanese that have been killed in the last two weeks were children, I’m a bit stunned. And, I guess, speechless.
In response to Nathan, bombing evacuation routes, power stations, and clearly marked Red-Cross ambulances carrying wounded meets my definition of collective punishment. We’ll just have to disagree on that. Your accusation of anti-Semitism on my part is baseless.
As a term of art in the field of international relations, neither the U.S. nor Israel has “recognized” Hamas as the elected government of the territories. In fact, Israel immediately withheld the Palestinian tax and customs revenues they had collected on behalf of the Palestinians according to the Oslo accords. Come to think of it, this is another example of collective punishment by Israel. Recognizing or even communicating with a government is a far cry from blanket support for it—your Kim Jong Il example misses broadly.
And to the rest who respond to my post, I would humbly ask that you re-read the third paragraph.
July 24th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
>>>>israel has promised to bomb ten buldings for every one hezbollah rocket. infrastructure, roads and buildings have been bombed. the question here is “is this response moral?”.
I’ve never heard Israel make such a promise, and I’ve been keeping up with it. Are you quoting Hesbollah quoting Israel by any chance? Provide a link please, else you will be exposed as a propagandist. Also, the destruction of infrastructure is not an issue in war. That’s why they call it war. I guess Hesbollah should have factored that into the equation.
>>>it is right ti point to hezbollah rockets. but hezbollah has killed maybe dozens of israelis, many of them arab israelis who the government has REFUSED TO ENTER SHELTERS!!!
Ok, LOL! now I know we’re dealing with a paid Hesbollah propagandist.
>>>>I cannot see how this response can be justified and can see no explanation for why people are defending except for ignorance or racism.
And when all else fails, just accuse people of….RACIIIIISM!!!! wahaaaa!!! The rest of your screed is equally ludicrous.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
It is easy to say that Israel “mishandled” the situation when we view if from the perspective of “two kidnapped soldiers.” But this is a decades long conflict for survival. These are not isolated incidents. Hezbollah, and the Arab nations as a whole (whether implicitly or explicitly) have declared their goal as the destruction of Israel as a nation and a people group. This is a dreadful conflict for survival. The loss of any life is horrifying and unacceptable, but we cannot be so singular focused that we do not recognize the big picture and reasons for this conflict. The Lebanese government is to weak to remove Hezbollah. Can Israel allow a terrorist group to amass weapons on their border whose sole purpose is annihilation of their very existence?
July 24th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
if someone shows more concern for non-israeli arabs then israeli’s, well they are anti-semetic, or so people seem to accuse often. I suggest that people defend israel either because they do not understand the devestation or because they do not care about lebanese life, which would be racist, and all of a sudden I am treading on some hallowed ground. I have surpassed the bounds of reason and taste? you have got to be kidding me. seriously, if you want to dismiss me and this issue fine, but your response was the equivalent of a raspberry. if you aren’t interested in discussing this issue, then be honest about that and don’t pretend otherwise.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
ps: that was to john
July 24th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
More things Adam won’t tell you:
U.N. Chief Accuses Hezbollah of ‘Cowardly Blending’ Among Refugees
Monday, July 24, 2006
Associated Press
LARNACA, Cyprus ‚Äî The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of “cowardly blending” among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.
The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of “cowardly blending” among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with Israel.
The militant group has built bunkers and tunnels near the Israeli border to shelter weapons and fighters, and its members easily blend in among civilians.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
>>>>It is easy to say that Israel “mishandled” the situation when we view if from the perspective of “two kidnapped soldiers.” But this is a decades long conflict for survival. These are not isolated incidents.
July 24th, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Attacks against “civilian infrastructure” are valid under internationally recognized rules of war as long as the objectives are military. South Beirut, according to the BBC, is the “nerve center” for Hesbollah. Israel calls it their “command and communications center.” It is a military target. The bridges destroyed, the airport runways destroyed also military targets. Villages in south Lebanon under artillery attack also are military targets even though they are “civilian infrastructure.” Yes, war is hell, like we didn’t know that already.
Hesbollah is the aggressor, and is guilty of war crimes because it hid these military assets amongst it’s own people in order to deter Israel from striking them, and to use the civilian casualties for propaganda purposes. It is a war crime under internationally recognized rules of warfare to intentionally use civilians to immunize military targets. Again, it is a WAR CRIME. I don’t mean that hyperbolically the way the Left uses that term. I mean it literally. Hesbollah is therefore guilty of those innocent civilian deaths, not Israel.
Also, according to the BBC many of the victims of Israeli retaliation in Lebanon are terrorists and not innocent civilians. A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, “It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian.” That is intentional! Hesbollah are no better than pirates. Can’t you see it?
You good christians are being suckered. Because when you buy into Hesbollah’s propaganda tactics you demonstrate to these savages that hiding behind civilians pays. Thus you are encouraging them to continue doing it, and you are encouraging others to do it in the future too. Please, stop!
July 24th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
for my 2cents worth - there are some interesting comments at Desert Pastor.
http://desertpastor.typepad.com/paradoxology under the title Rethinking Israeli Loyalties.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
My man Adam! Your world view is a curious one. Anyone who titles a post “Israel does great at breaking humanitarian laws” is either fishing for clicks, intellectually dishonest, or downright ignorant. I don’t believe you are ignorant so you are either click fishing or you lack honesty with yourself and your readers.
Adam, please, PLEASE - stop trying to be PC or else please stop identifying yourself as a Christian. The Bible is full of absolutes and God is a God of right and wrong, black and white. Don’t attempt to confuse the ignorant that there is any moral equivalency between Israelis and terrorists.
Oh, and one more thing. For your sake, release yourself from your well intentioned promise to “tell the Palestinian side of things.” Instead, try to focus on telling the truth.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:22 am
Father in heaven,
Protect people from harm. Help this situation resolve with minimal damage soon.
You are the Almighty. You are powerful. You are the only One that can take care of this. I put all my trust in You.
Amen.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
This raw footage of palestinian “oppression” bears watching in light of current Hesbollah claims:
http://dreadpundit.blogspot.com/
July 25th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
“In response to Nathan, bombing…clearly marked Red-Cross ambulances carrying wounded meets my definition of collective punishment.”
I had not been aware of any strikes on ambulances until I did a search based on your claim and found that, indeed, there have been at least a few attacks on or in the immediate vicinity of an ambulance carrying wounded people. I certainly find that activity despicable and even if Hezbollah were found to be using ambulances as cover, incredible standards of verification for each particular bombing run should be in place before authorization is given to target any kind of medical facility or transport. On that point, at least, I share your outrage but still do not see how a handful of such attacks amounts to “collective punishment”.
“As a term of art in the field of international relations, neither the U.S. nor Israel has ‘recognized’ Hamas as the elected government of the territories.”
I’ve done a news and US State Dept. search to verify this claim and have found nothing. Can you provide some support?
“In fact, Israel immediately withheld the Palestinian tax and customs revenues they had collected on behalf of the Palestinians according to the Oslo accords.”
Seeing as the Palestinians were the first to violate the Oslo accords, such a claim is irrelevant. In light of the inability of Israel (or anyone, for that matter) to verify that the tax revenue will be used for legitimate government purposes and not funneled into terror attacks on its own people and territory (a real risk with Hamas), why is it wrong to withhold those funds? You are so against “collective punishment” but are perfectly willing to force Israel into “self punishment.”
“Recognizing or even communicating with a government is a far cry from blanket support for it‚Äîyour Kim Jong Il example misses broadly.”
Really? How? A terrorist organization with no respect for Israeli life comes to power and you want Israel and the US to cough up tens of millions of dollars in aid money that could easily be used to fund attacks on civilians all because they were democratically elected. This doesn’t fit your “collective punishment” scenario because Palestine is being punished for the political will of the majority, not the few. Its collective responsibility.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
a sidenote: http://www.bagofnothing.com/?p=3149
July 25th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Προσεηθείτε για την ειρήνη της Ιερουσαλήμ προσεύχεται για την ειρήνη του κόσμου
July 25th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Is this just a dumb flame post? Its repugnant to say that a nation under attack whose people are dieing is ‘good at breaking laws’…would you say that about Sudan? Lebanon? Tibet?
Its sickening.
I suppose any idiot with a checkbook can go to PTS these days.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
”
Is this just a dumb flame post? Its repugnant to say that a nation under attack whose people are dieing is ‘good at breaking laws’…would you say that about Sudan? Lebanon? Tibet?
Its sickening.
I suppose any idiot with a checkbook can go to PTS these days.”
why did you even bother posting this? why is it that what he claims is wrong? back up your supposed indignation. everyone is so angry and yet no one seems willing to explain why
July 26th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
Liam if you reread my posts you can see my disagreement CAN be backed up. The support of Hezbollah and Hamas by Syria and Iran is well substantiated. The terrorism for years from Hezbollah has been well substantiated as well. To suggest that Israel should get the greater blame as appears by Adams post is clearly a problem in relation to the lack or at least an understantements of the problem beginning with Hezbollah and Hamas.
July 26th, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Are you freaking kidding me?
Israel has weapons to protect itself - they live in constant fear of being invaded and destroyed by the other Muslim countries.
Israel is justified in their actions.
I applaud Israel for being proactive.
Those people disguise themselves as “civilians” so what is Israel to do? Just let their country be attacked?
Israel is attacked everyday yet we ignore those reports.
God bless Israel…and pray for it’s peace.
July 26th, 2006 at 9:26 pm
According to Howard Dean, people who don’t believe Israel has a right to defend itself are anti-semites:
“The Iraqi prime minister is an anti-Semite,” the Democratic leader told a gathering of business leaders in Florida. “We don’t need to spend $200 and $300 and $500 billion bringing democracy to Iraq to turn it over to people who believe that Israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself and who refuse to condemn Hezbollah.”
So is he right? He’s your GOD, he must be right.
July 27th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Joe on a humorous but true note of agreement. Dean ridicules the Iraqi PM saying he should condemn Hezbollah but I would guess he would be the same type of person to say Israel must stop being supported by the US militarily or support a cease fire like many of theother Democrats. Many Democrats support cease fires without any conditions but then in thesame breath condemn the Iraqi PM for his statements which seem to support the original argument. Doesn’t make sense and shows a double standard on their part. It proves that hatred for GWB is greater than the greater good of the world.
To all who support Israel Joe, Patmos, Jake, KP, John, Kevin and the like kudos to you and your prayers for Israel. I also pray in balance that as few as possible of civilian casualties be limited as possible. That isn’t to say I support a cease fire at this time or that I don’t support Israel’s right to defend themselves like they are but in this war I pray for the innocent civilians who don’t support Hezbollah to be protected.
July 27th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Well Adam, Liam you all think what you want. Lets get a good look at who is supplying Hizbollah with bombs…the Iranians.
Not very nice government there these days. If Iran decided to bomb your hometown, I just have to wonder what you would do.
War is sad. I felt your post was disrespectful to those who have suffered. As a person who claims to be Christian I would expect more sensitivity to the pain and death on both sides.
Your post is a sad reflection on smug waspy, rich kid, ivy league nonsense. I would have hoped we all could have moved on past that. For someone with a degree in theology to spit back word for word that awful cruel stuff from Electronic Intifada…you are just as crazy as Bush and Robertson, just another chapter in the book of intolerance.
Can’t we start by seeing the pain on BOTH sides? And then seeking common ground?
You didn’t answer ONE question, just flaming on how people ‘didn’t read your post”.
Duh, of course they read it. THEY ANSWERED IT!
If ever there was a loser in the making its you. Hope for your poor wife’s sake someone has a trust fund.
Cuz you are one pedantic, self absorbed child.
July 28th, 2006 at 12:09 am
Wow Jake really kicked Andrew’s butt in that debate.
Point by point Andrew, sorry, you make no sense.
Being a sarcastic twit ( asking if Jake is against collective farming is silly!) isn’t the same as having concrete logic to support your dumb assertions.
Is Hizbollah engaging in ‘collective punishment’ when it rockets Nazereth and Haifa?
Get your facts straight. And lose the dumb frat boy attitude if you want to actually have a dialogue about current events.
August 1st, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Israel has a serious Public Relations problem. Through its elected officials, Israel has stated that it does not have any problems with people, or Government of Lebanon. Yet Israel has deliberately bombed the Lebanese Airport, Bridges, Roads Electric Grids, Telecommunications installations, roads, and buildings without establishing that these assets belong to Hisbollah, and not to the people of Lebanon.Israeli’s intelligence knows that a large percent of buildings it is bombing do not belong to Hisbollah. One cannot help but conclude that Israel does not want to see a prosperous Lebanon. The many years of Israeli’s occupation of Lebanon, even after the PLO had departed, suggests that the occupation had less to do with security. If Israel’s occupation of Lebanon was rooted in security interest, why is that Israel did not kick Syria out of Lebanon? Except for Israel’s destruction of Syrian Radars in Lebanon, IDF did not engage Syria in Lebanon. Actually, Israel exited Lebanon before Syria did. Israel is now whining about Syrian complicity in Hisbollah’s acts, after Israel co-existed with Syria, on Lebanese territory for almost twenty years. If Israel truly believes that Syria is a facilitator, or sponsor of Hisbollah, why not bomb Syria?