It seems like there are some ways that we talk about trying to appeal to the young, postmodern generation. Well, when Sarah and I drove through Sopchoppy, FL, I think it’s safe to say that we found a church that was doing quite the opposite. In case you can’t see in the image, New Home Baptist Church (whose pastor is Brother Jonathan) describes itself with the following words: Independent, King James, Old Fashioned, Fundamental & Missionary. Wow.
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
Aw man, signs like that are old hat . . . especailly in the South!
They sound interesting, but I can’t find their website. . .
I’ll admit that I wouldn’t go to a church with that sign, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s something wrong with it. Maybe they like things “old fashioned.”
Sure the sign implies some close-mindedness, but has it occured to anyone that they might not want “postmoderns” (whatever that abused and over-used word is supposed to mean these days) at their church because most of them come off sounding like condescending brats who would only complain about the service for a few Sundays before leaving anyway?
they forgot to note if they sing ‘hymns’ or not.
I swear there must be something in the water in Florida. I live in Pensacola and there is a church here that has almost the exact same words posted on the front of the building. As a matter of fact the old KJV is so essential to their faith that they have “KJV 1611″ posted twice.
And yes these types of signs are proof that there is something wrong and ultimately very unChristlike within these congregations.
Ok. Yes, they’re kind of crazy, but my question is, where do we get the right to feel so above it. It’s not like the signs say, “Whites Only,” or anything.
I completely understand that there is an implication that comes along with the words, but how is it any different in terms of language from (and I’m using this strictly as an example and not to jab at anyone) Adam Cleaveland here at this site describing himself as “Mac-user; Beer-lover; Subaru-owner; Husband; Progressive Emergent Presbyterian; etc.?”
Are his descriptions there to keep me, someone who uses a PC, doesn’t drink, drives a Pontiac, is not yet married, and is technically a Baptist off of his site? Or are they there to describe him and to be inviting for like-minded people?
Like I say, I understand that the implication is slightly different on a church sign, but how can we judge a church’s motives just by looking at a photo of their sign?
I’m young (22) and I must say I like “traditional”. I’ve never understood why things should have to change for the “younger generation.” God’s Word has never changed. And so how can we “change” things to accomodate others? That’s where we start to venture from the Bible and do our “own thing.”
I’m not Baptist, but I do feel where they are coming from with their sign. Nothing is wrong with keeping things they way there were. I believe it should be that way. Change isn’t always good.
Dood, this is the norm down here. You’ll find out quickly enough. At least they are up front about who they are. They aren’t going for the like of you just like you aren’t going for the likes of them. But we’re still brothers and sisters though, right? Adam?
Give ‘em a break. I’m sure there are plenty who attend this church who love Jesus and love others and those were his two big commandments…
Rich,
I appreciate what you have to say. I almost started to write a witty comment, but reading yours really made me stop to reconsider. Aren’t we supposed to give grace to the weaker brother?
Alright let me ask you did Christ put up any type of signs during his 3 year ministry? No he welcomed all no matter how sleazy or tainted that person’s past was. As a matter of fact the only people Christ had issues with were the Pharisees who proudly wore their self-righteousness as a sign for all to read.
My judgement only comes from experience…see I grew up in churches like this, and really I don’t consider what I have said “judging” rather than just speaking truth. These churches are but a few steps away from being completely radical like the Rev. Fred Phelps and his homophobic hate filled congregation.
As far as tradition goes…I attend a United Methodist church where we have both a contemporary and traditional service, so I don’t have a problem with tradition…as long as it doesn’t control the church. Remember most traditions were created by man in an attempt to draw closer to the Divine. So what is of ultimate importance is the heart in which these acts are done.
And as far as the whole changing thing…well this is what the Apostle Paul had to say on the matter:
“Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people: religious, nonreligious, meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralists, the defeated, the demoralized - whoever. I didn’t take on their way of life. I kept my bearings in Christ - but I entered their world and tried to experience things from their point of view. I’ve become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life. I did all this because of the Message. I didn’t just want to talk about it, I wanted to be in on it!”
I Corinthians 9:19-23 (The Message)
J.H.,
You wouldn’t happen to be speaking of Smyrna Baptist Church, would you?
I actually went to college at Pensacola Christian College from ‘96-’00 . . . I’m pretty sure I’m right on the money about this! :)
Right you are my friend.
JH,
I grew up in these churches too. It was not a good experience for me either. Still, I know lots of good folks still in these churches and while I could never go back myself, they are still my brothers and sisters. I’ve pointed out where I thought they were wrong and at times railed against them. But they are still my brothers and sisters. No sign can change that. No wacked out preacher can change that. No postmodern cool guy can change that. They love Jesus. They do the best they can to follow him, just like we do. Just like US they don’t have it all right, but thank God we have Lord that does.
According to Tony Jones himself, some folks similar to these are involved in the emergent conversation(http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/05/is_emergent_the.html)
Are they really? Posts and strings of comments like these make me wonder sometimes.
Lord, please help us be people of grace.
Speaking of closemindedness….good grief. Adam, you have given us a perfect example of closemindedness in your reaction to this sign. You need to get over your elitist, academic, snobbery my friend.
I’ll be the first to admit that over the last few years one of my biggest struggles has come with having grace and showing love to other Believers who I think are missing the mark. There has been progress made in this area of my life but still further work is needed.
However, why is it that when a person speaks something truthful it is considered a lack of grace? I didn’t type my ealier posts out of a hateful rage…I typed them out because they are true statements.
You said in your post:
“They love Jesus. They do the best they can to follow him, just like we do. Just like US they don’t have it all right, but thank God we have Lord that does.”
I don’t doubt that, but the same could also be said for Fred Phelps & the KKK. Here’s the rub…all of these people love their idea of who or what God is. I personally believe their idea of who God is is wrong…theirs is not a God of love & grace. I don’t claim that my idea of God is 100% correct, but that’s also what makes my journey so exciting. There is mystery and there will be unanswered questions but the one thing that I know to be indisputable is that God is a God of love…and this my friend is where they get it wrong.
I don’t think Adam said anything elitist or condescending. It’s a funny sign, and he’s exactly right: this church won’t attract postmoderns. However, I do think churches like this have their place in Christendom. The great thing about Christianity is there is such a diversity of thought and practice under one umbrella — the problem is that not many believers are comfortable with the idea of diversity.
By the way, I’ve seen this same type of sign on a lot of churches, though they usually include the label “Premillenial”. Maybe Brother Jonathan ran out of paint before he could add that particular identifier.
My real question is this: If you saw a church whose sign read, “Postmodern, The Message, Socially Conscious, etc.,” would you view it as exclusive or descriptive? Would you be offended by it?
My real question is this: would Brother Clark be welcomed in an Emergent church if he stuck to his theological premises?
YIKES!!! Although, I don’t think there is a church sign creepier than “Exposure to the SON may prevent burning.” Talk about a fear tactic.
I love your site. I enjoy it so much that I added it to my links page, which gets quite a few daily hits. I hope it helps. I also blog about Progressive Christianity on my site TheZealotInMyCloset.com, which is also where your link is located.
JH,
I apologize. I did not mean to say that you in particular need to have more grace. This post is one in a long string on Adam’s site, a site I love to come to btw, that do come from a place that make me wonder how much grace really is going out from the ec folks to those that are not ec or not like those in the ec. Adam is making a dig here on these folks in my opinion. And my opinion doesn’t mean much.
Rich
J.H… “proof that there is something very unChristian with these churches”
What in the world is unChristian about that sign.
Cubicle Rev. “giving grace to the weaker brother…” What in the world makes them a weaker brother just because they are different in their worship?
You guys are the most condemning group of folks I’ve followed. What makes them “Unchristian” or “weak”? THat they don’t think like you? Unbelievable!
Mateo
I wasn’t being condemning but rather stating my opinion that I believe signs like that are evidence of unChristlike behavior within that church. I don’t think it is unChrist-like to be Independent, King James, Old Fashioned, Fundamental, and/or Missionary. However, having grown up in churches like this who cling to these labels and consider them just as fundamental to Christianity as the virgin birth or the diety of Christ there is a general lack of love for anyone outside of their walls…that is what I refer to as unChristlike.
You said:
“What in the world makes them a weaker brother just because they are different in their worship?” and “What makes them “Unchristian” or “weak”? THat they don’t think like you?”
Now once again I ask this question…do you hold to the same line of thinking for people like Fred Phelps and the KKK. I ask this because these two groups claim to be Christians, but clearly have extreme views or opinions. Is it wrong to consider them unChristlike because they worship differently or have a different opinion of scripture?
J.H.
THat truly is the worst argument to make in this argument. THis church is only stating what labels them. They use the KJV, they are traditional and fundamental while having some notion of mission as a part of their church. The KKK, on their website, defines themselves as supporting whites only and is openly racist. THAT is unchristian behavior… so, yes, I do see them as being completely different.
So, you grew up in a church like this. What have you learned from them that can benefit conversations like this rather than only referring to them as unChristian and poking fun?
You can answer if you want but these conversations seem to be circular and devolve into pointless chatter so I’ll let it go. Grace to all…
In our patchwork environment of the church there are more than a few who will only attend a church like that one. This is what makes being the church hard, all threse varient individuals striving to be one body. This must be why Paul started and ended so many of his letter with the words grace and peace.
A lot of comments to read thru, whew! I like what Latisha and Rich had to say. A lot of the rest is way over my head! It took me a while to figure out what PoMoMusings could refer to. It helped to see the split using internal uppercase.
Now, not that anything I could comment is worth anything, but I am a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ who just happens to be Greek Orthodox. I am also a 29 year old man trapped in a 55 year old body. By that I mean to say, a lot of what we think, say and feel comes from who we think we are, including chronological age and the usual externals (race, gender, class, etc.). Best thing to do is align your “residual self-image” with Christ, and you find you can be at home anywhere, love everyone without qualification, and not mind it a bit if not everyone happens to agree with you on everything.
I don’t see anything wrong with the church whose sign is shown above. Like the Orthodox Christian church, these folks are beyond “post-modern”. They know that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. When we go to meet God in worship, it’s never on our terms. He tells us to take off our sandals to tread holy ground. We don’t tell Him, “Could you update your image a bit? Nobody wants to watch the Burning Bush much anymore. And by the way, do you have a catchy-er name? They’re just tired of the same old thing, Lord.”
Glory to God! Let’s just get back to the Word of God, prayer, fellowship, and love of the brethren. Jesus Christ is among us right now, at this very moment! Can’t we put away our church toys and games and let Him just walk among us, seeking His lost sheep? How embarrassing! The Lord wants to do in us now what He desires to do in us forever! Let Him do it, brothers and sisters! Forget all about your ideas, and fasten on to the Word of Life.
It’s not what would Jesus do, it’s what would He do if we’d only let Him!
Why would they want to attract ‘postmoderns?’ Should a church have a ‘target audience?’