Emergent is engaging in a joint meeting with Christian and Jewish leaders to talk about innovate practices used in congregations and synagogues. The “Emergent counterpart” in the Jewish community is called S3K (Synagogue 3000). Doug Pagitt posts the news release on his blog. I wonder if there are emergent Muslims?
Update: And of course, it has created controversy. See the thread of comments here at the Emergent What? site. I think that some of these people need to sit through Ellen Charry’s The Church & Israel lecture. I personally find it encouraging that we are seeking to connect with other people from other faith traditions who are asking similar questions. There was one line in one of the comments by Bob Hyatt that I have trouble with:
I understand the idea that we begin to develop dialog with leaders of other religions in the hopes that from our friendship and cooperation on things like social projects comes the opportunity to introduce someone to Christ…
I’m beginning to write a paper on Christian-Muslim Interfaith dialogue, and the idea that we engage in dialogue, or social projects for the “opportunity to introduce someone to Christ” just doesn’t cut it for me. We engage in dialogue because we want to know more about the ‘other’ and, as Vincent Donovan says in his book The Church in the Midst of Creation, we do so always “open to conversion - conversion to a fuller truth. If we are not open to conversion, then the process we are involved in is not one of evangelization but of proselytism. If we are not open to conversion, then we have no right to enter into true religious dialogue” (116).
So, dialogue, and actions like this move of Emergent to meet with S3K, are actions that ARE (in my estimate) about conversion: not trying to get Jews to becomes Christians - that is, I’m sure, not even on the radar of Jones or McLaren (I have no idea, because I haven’t spoken with them - but I would HOPE that would not be on their radar). But rather to place ourselves in postures where we can engage with one another, be open to being ‘converted’ to a fuller truth, and be able to bring about God’s Kingdom.
{ 23 comments… read them below or add one }
I read about that earlier today… Are S3000 and Emergent going to “partner” to reach their respective cultures? I wasn’t sure, I didn’t get to read more about S3000, but I will.
“But rather to place ourselves in postures where we can engage with one another, be open to being ‘converted’ to a fuller truth, and be able to bring about God’s Kingdom.”
What? Seriously, what does this mean? I find very little that is substantive in this statement. Please clarify.
“But rather to place ourselves in postures where we can engage with one another…”: This takes an attitude of humility that it would seem is becoming more and more uncommon. A posture and an attitude that would say, “I’m coming to this place to learn from you. I’m coming, accepting the fact that Christianity, and esp. my ‘version’ of Christianity is not the sole holder of God’s truth.”
“…be open to being ‘converted’ to a fuller truth…”: This plays right in with the above statement. Believing that Truth is bigger than whatever version we hold of it, and believing that God’s Truth is found in other places, in other people, in other religions, etc., we need to be open to the concept of ‘conversion’ - to seeing things in a new light, in a new way. I’m NOT saying that it means you’re open to converting to Islam, or Judaism, or Christianity (although, if someone genuinely feels that is the step they need to take, so be it). I’m saying that we need to be open to being changed, to being enlightened by others and other traditions.
“…and be able to bring about God’s Kingdom.”: Christians are not the only ones who can work to bring about God’s Kingdom. When others are working to bring about justice, working for peace, working for love of their neighbor, this is work that is done to bring about the Kingdom of God. I believe C.S. Lewis has something about this in The Last Battle that was very intriguing.
I hope that clarifies a bit.
I think that God’s truth is found in other places, no doubt. That doesn’t mean I’m open to being converted to a pursuit of God that denies Christ, though.
I’m with you on the need for a position of humility…”weakness” might even be a good word. But that doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with having a desire to “convert” someone else, does it? If I have a belief in something I think would benefit another person then it is only an expression of love for me to want to help them understand and embrace that belief.
When I posted this over at Doug’s blog, I anticipated this line of thought :)
So I tried to word it a bit differently. It will still probably not quite get there for you, but there you have it…
This sounds like wonderful opportunity to learn from our ‘older brothers’ in the faith.
uhhh ohh, evangelicals are gonna be mad at emergents… this should be interesting…
to be continued…
jonathon
Wow. Adam. I can’t believe I actually agree with you on something.
Very well said.
I must say, in spite of your anti Isreal position, I think there may, just may be some hope for you Christians yet. :+}
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Bill and Bobby
I can’t believe I am saying this, but please take another look at Adams explanation.
We Jews, and Muslims have own our faith. For you to assume you can ‘enlighten’ us with your version of religion is culterally offensive.
I know you mean well. I know that its not meant to be hurtful. But I believe in God. I have my own beautiful relationship with my own faith.
As do Muslims. We don’t want your Christianity. Please don’t try to ‘help’ us see the ‘light’.
There is room for all Gods children to find our own place.
Don’t keep trying to save us from ourselves please. And we will try to do the same for you. :}
Thanks Adam.
You have ALMOST restored my faith in the Christian Left.
Adam, you said “I believe C.S. Lewis has something about this in The Last Battle that was very intriguing.”
(I just saw The Movie last night, so I can’t resist)… I know the comment to which you refer and I think, on balance, that while Alsan might make some allowance for those who serve Tash out of ignorance, He also might have a huge problem with those who equate serving Tash with serving Him… or equate Tash’s kingdom with His… He seemed to draw the distinction between Himself and serving other gods fairly well.
Callie- I understand what you are saying and I apologize for the offensiveness of what most Christians believe… And laying aside for a moment all the arguments about cultural imperialism, the reason most of us believe it (this part that offends you so much) is that it’s the very nature of the Gospel itself. We have to tell people about Jesus.
For you to ask us not to is to do that which you are saying you are trying not to do.
Hope that makes sense…
Adam,
Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, no, it does not clarify your previous statements. Instead, it seems that you only restated what you had already said. Maybe it will help if I ask some specific questions:
1) You say about your first point that, “This takes an attitude of humility that it would seem is becoming more and more uncommon.”
Where is this becoming uncommon? In the U.S.? If so, which parts of the U.S.? Or is it globally, or other areas of the globe? How is it different from previous “attitudes”? Becoming uncommon among which group of individuals? Christians? Jews? Muslims?
2) Next, you restated what you had said about “fuller” truth. I should have been more clear. What does Donovan, and by extension, you, mean by “fuller” truth? What does that look like? How do we know it’s more “full” than previous accounts of truth? What are the epistemological claims that will need to be abandoned in order to receive a “fuller” account of truth? Abandoned by whom? What is the discerning process here?
3) Next you talked about the “Kingdom of God.” What do you mean by suggesting that we can “bring about” the Kingdom of God? Are you saying that such a Kingdom is a present tense possibility? How is that different from Rauschenbusch’s Social Gospel at the turn of the 20th century?
I appreciate your willingness to engage dialogue with multiple faith traditions. However, I wonder what you believe is distinctive about Christianity. From this post, one wonders what the difference is between agnosticism and your interpretaton of Christianity.
I only ask these questions because I think, as KP suggested in a comment somewhere earlier, you have a certain penchant for oversimplifications. If you would expand on the suggestions in your posts, it would be most helpful to your readers.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going,
RNDaniel
Bob,
When you say to ‘tell people about Jesus’ what does that mean?
Is that something a la Pat Robertson that calls for the ‘Christianizing’ of America?
The issue that troubles me about Christians is that they feel that those who have different beliefs are somehow ‘faithless’ or ‘Godless’ to quote the religious right.
We are not.
We don’t need to hear about Jesus from you. We have heard, and we respect your right to your faith.
The belief that you are somehow ’saving’ us is very ethnocentric. Muslims, Hindu’s and Jews have a faith of their own. This faith is valid.
Thanks so much, its an interesting discussion.
So, you had to go to Pat Roberston, eh?
:)
Don’t you realize that to most of us, that’s just like calling a devout Muslim “Osama Bin Laden”?
And you are buying into some very stereotypical views of Christians, if I might add… I recognize completely that no person is “godless.” Not having faith in Jesus does not equate to not having faith.
I’m sorry that our belief that Jesus calls us to share the Gospel with the world is offensive. But it’s not in the least “ethnocentric” since the most vital centers of Christianity right now are
1. South America
2. Africa
and
3. House churches in China.
I don’t think you really respect my right to follow Jesus as I believe He is calling me to. If you did, you would express your dislike for evangelism, but recognize that in the marketplace of ideas, my right to persuade someone to faith in Jesus is just as sacrosanct as others’ right to believe what they wish or even nothing at all.
I respect your right to say you don’t want to hear about Jesus. Please respect my right to tell those who do.
bob,
No offense intended with the Pat Robertson comment.
Perhaps he is the Ariel Sharon of Christianity?
Bob, one more thing there, I do understand that in trying to convert Jews, Hindu’s Muslims and Buddists to Congregationalists, Methodists and Presbytarians you mean well for us. I don’t accuse you of bad intent.
Its just that we are for the most part happy with our own faith. We Jews are a tiny people, all but wiped out time after time by people who saw us as a real problem to their theology. All we ask, is for the timy remaining number of us, less than 13 million world wide to simply be allowed some well deserved peace.
I agree with Adam completely. Let us all have a conversation. Lets not try to convert us. We are scared to death of Christians, ( look at history, its not without its reason) and could warm up to you much better if we could just build some trust.
Your faith works for you. I am happy for you. Why not accept and celebrate the diversity of paths the way Adam is suggesting? On this point, he is dead on.
There is one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus.
Adam, let me know when you finish your paper. I’d love a copy. Peace.
callie,
Bob beat me to some responses I would have made to your previous comments and I was impressed with your thoughtful response to his (and my) arguments.
I agree that you should be allowed peace from any kind of forceful attempt to change something about your faith. I look forward to hearing what comes of the S3K meeting. It is my belief that both groups will benefit if they start by focusing on what we have in common. I hope you’ll agree that this naturally leads, at some point, to what makes us distinct as well.
I agree with Adam where he says that “we need to be open to being changed, to being enlightened by others and other traditions.” I don’t think that will change my understanding of Jesus as messiah, but I do think it could help me to better understand my own faith.
Anyway, thanks for your patient part in this conversation.
No doubt, man, no doubt. I think, for instance, that many TBN-type Christians could learn much from buddhism about simplicity and non-materialism.
But that’s really just a biblical thought, isn’t it?
At any rate, what I want to distinguish, and keep distinguishing is the difference between tolerance (which I am enthusiastically in favor of) and relativism (which is a self-contradicting and ultimately nihilistic train of thought).
We can all live together and love each other, but to see that happen doesn’t require any of us to give up the distinctive truth claims of our individual belief systems. And in the case of Christianity, we have a mandate from the Founder Himself to share the Good News of the Kingdom with anyone who will listen. If they don’t, that’s okay (efforts to coerce people are anti-Kingdom, in my estimation)… but to say that Christians should not attempt to tell people about Jesus the Messiah would be to ask them to give up something very near the center of their faith…
Adam,
As usual, great post and great conversation all around. As I am a big fan of Donovan I think I understand what you are getting at where others may not. However, I do want to say that I don’t think it is entirely fair to say, as KP does, that you have a “penchant for oversimplifications”. But then again, I am a simpleton so maybe I just don’t see it.
At any rate, I think this meeting of the minds will be a great thing and I am glad to see it happen. I am currently reading and blogging about a book (Jurgen Moltmann’s The Way Of Jesus Christ) that is related to this topic and there is much in it that you may find interesting.
Bob,
I agree, any meeting between the Jewish and Christian faith communities should always be about building on what we have in common and that is alot!
And I also appreciate your thoughtfulness, while I don’t always agree with Adam, he at least presents a well thought out position on things such as this. :}
To be honest, I was deeply troubled by Mikes response to me that there is only one way to God and that is the Christian way.
Logically since Jewish people believe in God we would not see this as a respectful approach. This accuses of of “Godlessness” and is the cause of much suffering and dehumanization. If we are faithless, then we go to hell right? And so we are somehow “less human” than you.
This is a concept that helps explain the last 500 years of Christian interaction with Jews. And yes, it troubles me.
I was very shocked to read the blogs on the subject, as if even speaking to Jews would somehow defile those engaged in the discussion.
The entire Jewish community is only 13 million people. Population numbers have still not returned to the pre WW2 levels.
Jews are at the present time experiencing a new wave of attacks and persecution all across Europe.
Violent attacks against innocent people, burned schools and synagogues and even desecrated cemetaries are once again common events.
Without being disrespectful, I don’t see why Christians don’t try to just talk to us without needing us to change. We have heard about your belief in Jesus. Why not just try to *show* us?
I don’t see or hear any comments about this viloence on any Christian blogs except those on the far right.
In any case, I hope this meeting goes well. Its always best to be optimistic.
But from what I have read on this, it seems that even the liberal side of Christianity sees us as not having a valid faith.
And to be honest, that really troubles me.
How Bob can the next hundred years of history be any different than the last if Christians hold on to that sense of being exclusive?
And thanks so much for your thoughtful dialogue.
Callie
Perhaps the issue is that all of us are in danger of having an incomplete faith without being open to what God is saying to other people with other experiences.
I had never thought of that Bill. Perhaps you are right. Its an interesting thought to be sure.
I am happy with my own faith, and I believe you are happy too with yours. I respect that and would never want to see you compromise that.