gay? fine by me.
September 20, 2005
Today, 25 students at Princeton Theological Seminary are wearing the “gay? fine by me” t-shirts. Covenant Network Fellowship is handing out the shirts, and we are hoping to order a couple hundred more this fall to give to students. We’re hoping that these shirts, along with other activities put together by Covenant Network Fellowship and BGLASS (Bisexuals, Gays, Lesbians And Straight-Supporters), would let students know that we are trying to create a safe environment for LGBT students here at PTS.
UPDATE: It’s been a good day so far - I’ve had numerous people come up to me and ask about the shirt and tell me that they either liked it or that they wanted one. So that’s been great and definitely an encouraging thing. On a “publicity” note, Al Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary apparently saw this post (or the person who writes his blog saw it) and blogged about it here with his post, “Gay? Fine by them.” I guess I’m flattered that Al would take the time to comment on a blog by a seminary student, just as long as he remembers to read the Disclaimer on the blog that says my views do not represent the views of Princeton Theological Seminary. Once again, very interesting to see what posts get picked up by different people.
Tags: Covenant-Network, Homosexuality, PC(USA), Princeton-Seminary, Sexuality
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
September 20th, 2005 at 9:55 am
What happened to the pictures of all of the stickers on your door?
September 20th, 2005 at 2:33 pm
Did you know this post made Al Mohler take notice? Indeed, he thought your post was so unorthodox, he had to comment on it. I thought you might be honored to know this.
September 20th, 2005 at 2:50 pm
My friend Day who went to Notre Dame used to be a part of the Alliance of Many Letters (my name, because I always leave a few out). They had orange shirts like that. I always assumed it was a ND thing. I guess it’s not. That’s all, nothing of any importance for me to say. Have a good one.
September 20th, 2005 at 3:14 pm
(or the person who writes his blog saw it)
Do you mean to suggest that Al doesn’t write his own stuff?
September 20th, 2005 at 3:15 pm
Kellen - I have no idea - but I think anything’s possible - I mean, does the President of SBTS really have time to search around the blog world? I suppose we’ll only know if HE shows up and leaves some comments. I mean, first Andy Stanley, next Al Mohler!
September 20th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
i wouldn’t be so sure about his arrival. he’s probably at Powerline — “a serious bible study for serious times.” i wonder what makes this era more serious than the next? it makes me wonder if my house church is serious enough? am i serious enough? how serious are these times? — more then nineteenth centuries imperialism? more then the eighteenth’s radical revolutions?
September 20th, 2005 at 4:31 pm
I just thought I’d throw in the last paragraph from Albert’s post. (You know, for people like me, who don’t usually follow links).
“At the same time, sending the signal that a Christian is “a safe person to come and speak with” would be an undeniably good thing — so long as that Christian is prepared to tell the truth about homosexuality, one sinner to another.”
September 20th, 2005 at 5:04 pm
I think it is daring, dangerous and worthy of doing. Thanks for putting this out there.
Peace,
Jamie
September 20th, 2005 at 5:40 pm
Alas, though, Cory, Dr. Mohler presumes to know “the truth about homosexuality.” Not only that, but he also presumes that any “Christian” will automatically know this “truth” about homosexuality (which, I assume, in Mohler’s opinion is as simple as saying that “being gay is against the will of God”).
Perhaps he doesn’t know the truth about homosexuality; heck, perhaps Adam doesn’t know the truth about homosexuality! What then, should we do?….
September 20th, 2005 at 6:58 pm
Stand to Reason mentioned your shirts (and your blog) a while back. It is funny what gets picked up. Looks like you have more than one big time right-wing readers.
Of course, Stand to Reason had to say that you were “emergent”. Just so that it was clear, I guess.
September 20th, 2005 at 7:13 pm
kp -
Whats your point? You seem to assume that YOU know the truth far better than Dr. Mohler. I guess just because he’s one of those horrible evangelicals, well, we can just assume he’s full of crap.
September 20th, 2005 at 9:51 pm
I’m not hearing anyone saying that just because Al Mohler is a “horrible evangelical” that he’s full of crap. I do find it fascinating that he did mention that we as followers of Jesus do need to be a safe place to the homosexual community to talk to. I beleive the shirts are a step in the right direction. I do not see Dr. Mohler offering any suggestions of his own, however… which is what the problem is with a lot of evangelical discussion about homosexuality. Most of it is some kind of crazy “conviction by concussion” mentality. Sad. Very sad.
May we be the kinds of people who embody the teachings of Jesus… love, grace, mercy, healing, wholeness, and redemption.
September 20th, 2005 at 10:00 pm
huh, i wonder what andy stanley thinks…
seriously, i have two thoughts.
first, if homosexuality is a sin, we still have a responsibility to love those engaging in it in the identical way that Jesus would have… and he would have loved them to the extent of losing his life.
…but, would he have said, “fine by me”?
second, if homosexuality is not a sin, it should be fine with us.
perhaps this is an oversimplification and i’ve created a false antithesis. but it should probably at least be part of the discussion.
oh yeah, and attacking al or adam for their views won’t help at all.
September 21st, 2005 at 12:11 am
A quick hey! from the other guy in the ‘postmodern academy’ that Mohler saw fit to critique.
Way to go on the shirts.
September 21st, 2005 at 12:36 am
Funny, how I was on campus for what felt like forever today and didn’t even realize these shirts were a thing… in fact, I only noticed 1 person was wearing one. Was it green? I think so.
But if nothing else, I’m glad to see one more thing that Christians can argue about in cyberspace…
September 21st, 2005 at 12:48 am
Nathan,
You wrote:
kp -
Whats your point? You seem to assume that YOU know the truth far better than Dr. Mohler. I guess just because he’s one of those horrible evangelicals, well, we can just assume he’s full of crap.
Actually, I think what I wrote indicated that none of us knows the truth about homosexuality in the 21st century! I didn’t intend to intimate that I know the truth any better than Mohler or Adam. Nor did I insinuate any kind of prejudice against “those horrible evangelicals.”
I simply appealed to the fact that we overwrought, proud modern humans might think we know far more than we actually do. ALL of us, myself included.
September 21st, 2005 at 5:54 am
May I say that as a homosexual person who has been shunned by Christians and the church that regardless of whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it has not prevented me from having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Condemnation from church members and clergy? Well, let me put it this way. We are able to see the love of God in many avenues, but perhaps one of the most powerful is through the love of others. It is discouraging when that love does not come through other Christians. Honestly I do not think that most non-minority group Christians realize the damage it causes when an individual is shunned within the church. I know some will say they love the sinner, and hate the sin, but I have yet to meet a person for whom this rings true. Whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin, I think what the church needs to realize MORE importantly is that the gay community is not hearing about the love of Christ. If you honestly want to share the gospel with a GLBT person and speak to them about sexual sin and your view, it won’t happen through preaching hellfire from the pulpit or holding protest signs at gay pride parades.
On a final note, I want to say thank you to Adam for taking a stand. It may be a while before I will be able to take some of my GLBT friends into a church building and they can feel safe, but it’s the little things that are helping the gay community move forward and I pray the church will open it’s doors to us before it’s too late.
September 21st, 2005 at 9:51 am
kp -
I’m sorry if I read into your comments, but you have to admit there is a strong current of anti-evangelical bias among emergents & progressives on this (and other) blogs. In many instances, there is an immediate rush to judgment without any real engagement. I think you can see an example of this in Joel’s sarcasm in the 6th comment above.
David -
“second, if homosexuality is not a sin, it should be fine with us”
I agree. But in the same way we don’t consider heterosexuality a sin, we still draw a distinction about sinful/holy behaviors. Personally, I don’t care if someone is gay and certainly wouldn’t shun them as ‘C’ describes above. However, I couldn’t wear Adam’s shirt because I think it makes a politicized statement - whether or not it intends to - that carries the baggage of refusing to make a behavioral distinction. I think the debate/discussion needs to move away from the question of orientation-as-sin towards behavior-as-sin, which I think is really what the Bible is talking about.
September 21st, 2005 at 9:59 am
nathan -
thanks for clarifying. i absolutely was speaking of behavior, not orientation…
obviously, we are all oriented toward sin. Jesus gives us the chance to behave rightly in spite of that.
but i think Jesus is about a whole lot more than just behavior modification…
that’s probably another topic.
September 21st, 2005 at 12:26 pm
xxxchurch has a shirt that says “Jesus loves porn stars” which is similar to the one you described. While I agree with the concept, I believe it’s incomplete. For instance, their shirt should read “Jesus loves porn stars…” with the periods of elipsis symbolizing that there’s more to it than pure acceptance. After all, doesn’t Jesus love us just as we are… but also doesn’t He love us too much to let us stay that way?
My two cents…
September 21st, 2005 at 2:27 pm
Some faculty members here would be surprised to learn that they’re members of the “postmodern academy.” Someone should let them know that.
September 24th, 2005 at 1:32 pm
I don’t know whether or not Al Mohler writes his own blog, but I have confirmed that Michael Hyatt, President & CEO of Thomas Nelson Publisher (a company about 600 in size) does write 100% of every word on his blog at http://michaelhyatt.blogs.com/ .
September 27th, 2005 at 6:28 pm
As daughter of a professor at Southern, I can tell you with about 90% certainty that Dr. Mohler does, in fact, write his own blog.
September 28th, 2005 at 12:44 am
Adam, I don’t know you really well, but I was reading some blogs online and found yours. I was struck by the t-shirts that people chose to wear last week, and wanted to ask a few questions concerning them.
Primarily, what is the message you really wish to send? Is it a condoning of the modern acceptance of sexual norms? Or rather, is it simply a statement that, no matter what ones sexual preferences (be they for same gender, multiple partners, children, different gender, multi-racial, etc.), they are worthy of hearing the gospel of Christ and can respond to his love? I was struck by the slogan on the shirt because I feel that many students here at PTSEM felt you were advocating a Christian philosophy of ambivalence or apathy to any sexual behavior. What is your take on the meaning of the shirt?
Secondly, what is the goal of a group like this? Surely, in this day and age when issues like anti-semitism, racism, pluralism, secularism and “progressive rationalism” (the modern liberal movement in its most extreme forms) are so divisive, should it not be important to focus on loving your brothers and sisters rather than isolating them? Is there any issue which is more likely to split our struggling church more than that of the acceptance of “alternative” lifestlyes? Is there a time in which loving someone means not pressing every issue, but rather, acknowledging what a group can handle and working from there?
Thanks for reading. I am interested in how you would respond to these issues, or anyone else on this blog for that matter. Salud.
September 29th, 2005 at 3:03 am
Hey, have you guys read that story in the Bible where Jesus made tunics for all His disciples, and 200 other random individuals that said, “Hey we love sinners, how about you?”
Me neither- He must have been too busy actually living love to make the tshirt. I’m glad seminary students today aren’t missing any of the details in order to touch individuals the way their model did.
September 29th, 2005 at 9:51 am
I don’t read comments terribly often around here, mostly because I’ve noticed one major theme throughout every chain of comments:
People are mean!
If we can’t even dialogue with a spirit of Christian love, then how are we supposed to communicate that love to the world? Spite and sarcasm don’t bring people to Christ, so why should they be the main characteristics of our Christian dialogue?
September 29th, 2005 at 4:05 pm
I’m glad to see one more thing that Christians can argue about in cyberspace…
Cheers to you Don!!
October 4th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
I didn’t read all the comments above, but one key issue stands out to me: as followers of Jesus Christ, do we believe that the Bible - God’s written Word - is absolute truth?
I do. Which is why I can say that without a doubt, homosexuality is a sin. I don’t feel embarrassed to say that because it’s not my opinion to defend. It’s from God’s Word.
One obstacle in debating this issue is that the pro-gay crowd will get defensive and say, “What, you’re perfect? Do you hate everyone?” That’s not the point. We are all sinners in need of God’s saving grace. But His grace does not mean that we are free to sin.
October 4th, 2005 at 11:35 pm
I wonder though if God really needs defending. I’m inclined to think God can take care of defending God’s kingdom and judging/saving; in which case, perhaps our only job is to love and support and let God take care of the rest.
June 14th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
You need to read and believe the bible. You have to love homosexuals but not excuse their behavior. Some people have the desire to steal or commit adultry, that doesnt make it right. Homosexuality is plainly a sin and it is not to be affirmed by the “Christian Community” I use that term lightly with you. If you do not believe the bible is true then do not call yourself a Christian. Jesus died so that we could have the gospel and you are defiling it!
September 13th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Joe Kennedy — I am also a friend of Day. I went to Notre Dame and was responsible for bringing the “fine by me” project there.
As an FYI to everyone, fine by me is a national program that is run by a non-profit group in texas. Neither Adam or I–or any other student organizer–is responsible for coining the message on the shirt. There is a board of directors at FBM that has fielded numerous comments on the slogan, and opted for the simple, memorable message on Adam’s shirts.
I want to make a point that is very important, but it almost always falls on deaf ears. So here goes nothing:
Gay people do not all have sex. When someone comes up to you and says “I’m gay” there is no need for you to inform them about their sinful lifestyle. We choose to sin, or not to sin, so please remain hopeful of the possibility that the person has not sinned.
Secondly, gay people are not ignorant. Again, when a person says “I’m gay”, you do not need to tell them what the Bible or the church says. They already know, unless they’ve been living in a cave.
It’s not just about separating the sinner from the sin. It’s about separating those who have sinned, and those who haven’t. Once you’ve done that, be constructive rather than condemning. The best thing is to love the person, with no asterisk, no finger-wagging, no “but”… love them unconditionally.
Keep up the dialogue, and as Melissa said, keep it nice people!