Meeting With a Zionist
July 22, 2005
[During this post, I will be having some quotations from Melissa (a pseudonym); while I did not have an audio recorder with me, and I don’t remember the quotes word for word, my paraphrases below certainly reflect the messages she was trying to get across to me. I will also be putting some words in quotations to emphasize to the reader that a specific word was Melissa’s choice, and it may be a different term than I would generally use.]
Today I met with a woman (who I will call Melissa) who works for a non-profit agency in Jerusalem, thanks to the connection of a friend of mine. The agency she works for helps North American immigrants acclimate to Israeli society and it was also founded to “build strong ties between North American Jewish communities and Israel.”
I met Melissa at her office and we had a nice talk for about an hour or so. Let me just give you some background first. She has a husband and four children (3 daughters and 1 son) and they all moved from New York about 20 years ago, and her family lives in Maale Adumim (the largest settlement in the West Bank). Melissa is a Zionist (she called herself that term, which according to UN Resolution 3379, is basically like calling yourself a racist) and is an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath and believes that the moral laws of Judaism are very important to follow.
I think that for the few on this blog who have continually called on me to be in communication with those on the “other” side – this conversation I had with Melissa will count as a chance that I had to hear from the “other” perspective. Within the first few moments of our conversation, Melissa began to recount stories of friends of children who were attacked by “terrorists.” She told me story after story of friends that were killed, or injured by attacks by Palestinians; one man who is now a father and a husband but who is a paraplegic. All of her children served their time in the Army and she is very proud of the Israeli army.
She related a story once about how the soldiers at the border crossings down in Taba (crossing to Egypt) and Allenby Bridge (Jordan) were instructed to refrain from eating or drinking in from of the Muslims during Ramadan. Then she said that when she used to be able to drive through Bethlehem, she was always so offended that “those Palestinians” would sell bread in the streets on Passover. Melissa said, “It seems so interesting that while the Israeli army can be so respectful of another religious tradition and the Palestinians just can’t understand that.”
Then we started to talk about my time so far in the Holy Lands and how I had been enjoying it. I told her it had been good, it was wonderful to live with the Palestinians and experience their love and hospitality. I mentioned that I was working with a non-profit organization in Bethlehem and the first question she asked was, “Hmm, do you know if Hamas is involved?” I said “No.” and she said, “Well, I’m kind of surprised. That is what is so ironic about Hamas – they are so involved in community development, non-profit groups, daycares, etc., and they are also so involved in terrorism. You sure you’re not involved with Hamas?”
I told her we had definitely been hearing the Palestinian side of things this summer, and it was pretty intense to hear so many stories about Palestinians getting stopped at checkpoints, sometimes being kept there and not being able to get to hospitals to received needed medical attention. She said, “Well, I think you should probably come and see some of our hospitals here in Jerusalem – I’m sure you’ll find significantly more Palestinians here than Israelis…” [But, there are Palestinians who live in Jerusalem and East Jerusalem, so I’m not really sure what her point was]
Many times when she was talking about checkpoints and other forms of Israeli ‘security’ measures, she made references to the fact that when you’re a parent, you can’t just let your children do whatever they want, and not have consequences from some of their actions. “If a child misbehaves, you might have to take away their toy…or you might have to discipline them so they know it’s not okay to do that.” Obviously, in this analogy, Israel is the mature “parent”-figure, while Palestinians are the “children” that need to be disciplined. [At this point in the conversation, it helped that I am a passive-aggressive person who can nod and be polite even if I am incredibly disagreeing with the person on the inside. Then I come here and blog about it…]
I asked her, “So, had you always wanted to move to Israel? Was it something inspired by your parents, or…what was your reason for wanting to move here?” [When she and her family moved, her oldest daughter was 14 years old; so it was a big move for her family, and she admitted that she was, and is, the driving force behind coming and staying in Israel] Melissa responded, “Well, I am a Zionist and I believe that the land of Israel has always had a Jewish presence from the very beginning, you obviously see that in the Bible as well, and I believe that this land must belong to Israel. While I was born in America, this land is my spiritual home, and I couldn’t just be comfortable sitting at home in America when I knew that I had to do whatever I could do to make sure that I was a part of helping Israel. It was my responsibility to come here and make sure that the Land of Israel belong to the people of Israel.”
Eventually we both realized that the conversation had gone about as far as it was going to go, so I asked her one last question: “So, what would you want people like me to know, people who have been hearing one side of this conflict all summer – what is the message you would want to get across?” This is how Melissa responded: “You must understand what it feels like to feel threatened. When all you want to do is go to work, go home, go out every now and then, raise a family, and to feel that your ‘entire existence is threatened’…when that happens, you must do anything that you can to fight for your family, for your land. It’s not something that you want to do – but you have to understanding – when you are threatened, you must protect yourself. Israel has the right to protect its citizens when it is threatened, and that is what Israel is doing.”
Thoughts After
It was good for me to hear the other side, I will admit that. Melissa knew where I was coming from politically and she was glad to see that I made the effort to come and listen to her and hear her side of things. It is clear that to some degree there is suffering on both sides of this conflict. No doubt, just as there are Palestinians who are losing children and brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers, there are Israelis whose families are being torn apart by this violent conflict. It would be interesting to know exact numbers and statistics about how many Israelis and Palestinians have lost family members.
But again, even though there HAVE been many tragic events that have caused Israelis to die, it his hard to compare that to the entire Palestinian way of life being changed and in a sense, “killed.” To wall up an entire people and cause so much strife and loss…
Also I couldn’t help but hear a tone of superiority in much of Melissa’s language and attitude toward the conflict. It was pretty clear that she believed Israel was of course in the right, and the more mature, “parental” figure in this struggle. It was, as I have heard before, all about Israel’s security. Israel is not a weak nation.
I am glad I went. Melissa was very friendly and welcoming to me. She did ask me at one point if I had read the Bible and studied the Hebrew Bible extensively. She said, “You know – we’re called a stiff-necked people…and that can be a bad thing; but, it’s also a good thing at times.” Hmm. It was hard for me to listen to her perspective, because so much of it seemed so….I don’t know, so “off.” Has she driven through the West Bank? Has she really heard the stories of these people? Is she really feeling *that* threatened in her settlement-life? Again, I’m not Melissa and so I don’t know – but it’s really hard for me to believe…
Tags: Hamas, Israel, Palestine, Politics, Zionism
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:05 pm
“If a child misbehaves, you might have to take away their toy…or you might have to discipline them so they know it’s not okay to do that.”
Interesting post. The lady used an unfortunate analogy, admittedly. It reminds me of how Liberals see minorities. But the carrot and stick approach is standard operating procedure. There is nothing unusual about it.
So, are you an unwitting dupe of Hamas?
July 22nd, 2005 at 12:12 pm
when in the Bible is stiff necked ever a positive thing?
thanks for the blogs adam, i have really enjoyed learning a lot more about this struggle.
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:31 pm
I’m sorry for my ignorance–I don’t know what this “stiff-necked” thing means. Could you clear it up?
It sounds like you had a really interesting experience talking to this woman. Does she have access to your blog?
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:35 pm
I guess you forgot UN Resolution 4686 . . . it revoked Resolution 3379 with a vote of 111 to 25 (with 13 abstentions).
I quote:
“…to equate Zionism with the intolerable sin of racism is to twist history and forget the terrible plight of Jews in World War II and indeed throughout history.”
your intellectual dishonesty continues. my respect diminishes exponentially.
July 22nd, 2005 at 5:55 pm
Simultaneously, I applaud your attempt (and willingness) at dialogue with a Jew.
July 23rd, 2005 at 12:47 am
It’s been interesting reading your posts, indeed, Adam. I got the impression from the beginning that you were coming at this from a particular political perspective, so it’s good that you did meet with someone from the Jewish side of the conflict to attempt to understand where they are coming from.
I find I am biased in favor of Israel in this conflict, for two reasons: First, that my Bible tells me that the Jewish people are God’s chosen people (and Jesus was Jewish)… and second, while the Palestinians may appear to be the underdog against Israel’s armed forces, I tend to view Israel as the oppressed party when the terrorist leadership of Palestine in the past has affirmed their avowed purpose is to eradicate the Jews and drive them into the sea. In the face of that kind of a terrorist threat, it’s understandable that they take steps to defend themselves strongly.
I understand that I am also coming at this from a particular viewpoint, and I have not actually been there to see the situation on the ground for myself. I don’t believe Israel is always right in everything they do or have done in this conflict, but I support their right to exist, which is more than the Palestinian extremists do.
I also understand that there are extremists on both sides, and that living amongst the non-extremist population will give you a different perspective. Dealing with individuals instead of ideologies tends to do that for you. Trees as opposed to forest, and all that.
Blessings and peace to you, Adam - this experience of yours has been educational for us as well as for you. Thanks for blogging it.
July 23rd, 2005 at 3:41 pm
To defend Adam a bit: Reno, I don’t think Adam didn’t share that UN info because he is practicing “intelletual dishonesty”–I just don’t see it being as intentional as you seem to take it. More likely, it’s just a product of the kind of information he’s getting and the agenda of the people who are giving him that information. I don’t think Adam is looking up UN resolutions to use in his arguments. Someone is telling him this stuff, and they aren’t giving him the complete picture because of their goals. Should he be able to see through it? Maybe–but being naive is different than being dishonest. I don’t think Adam is dishonest.
************
“Is she really feeling *that* threatened in her settlement-life? Again, I’m not Melissa and so I don’t know – but it’s really hard for me to believe…”
Adam, the alternative to believing her would be to say she’s lying–and then the only real explanation for her actions would seem to be some sort of racist agenda. You seem to imply (with the Zionism comment) that this may be what you think her true motives are. I’d say it’s better to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she’s not a lying to you. The main reason would be because, as you have said to others, you really don’t know what it’s like until you’ve been there and lived in these people’s shoes. The idea that she’s threatened be “hard to believe” for you, but then again, a lot of what you say is hard to believe as well–as Reno points out repeatedly.
I suspect that it would be difficult for you to accept that she might be telling the truth in her final statement to you, because if she was, then her actions would have a sense of legitimacy (the need to protect herself and her family) that you’re not willing to give her (but that you are willing to give to the Palestianians). It’s much easier to explain who is right and wrong in this conflict if she’s just a racist.
I think it’s hard to truly listen, understand, and have compassion on someone when you’ve already decided that their point of view is completely wrong and their justifications are not really believable. If she’s a racist, it’s a black and white matter; but if she’s ALSO a victim, then this whole issue is more a shade of gray. I don’t know what it’s like for you in real life, but just from reading your blog, I don’t think you see any gray with people like her. It’s almost like you’ve become Chris P. on this issue.
July 23rd, 2005 at 6:13 pm
” It’s almost like you’ve become Chris P. on this issue.”
Oh, sweet mother of the Son! If there ever was a statement to rattle the cage of Adam Cleaveland, that was the one!!!
July 23rd, 2005 at 11:01 pm
point noted Jeff. good comments.
however, for the record, intellectual dishonesty can arise from ignorance too.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:05 am
Okay, I think I need to address a few things here. First of all, yes, stiff-necked is not normally a good thing. Rachel, here ( http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=856 ) is a link to a little description of the Bible verse (Exodus 32.9-10) where it mentions that the Israelites are ’stiff-necked.’
Reno, I apologize for not noticing that when I first looked into UN Resolution 3379. But Jeff, no you’re wrong - no one is giving me this information, it’s just random stuff I’m finding. When I looked up Zionism on Wikipedia, I ran across the 3379 and the linking of Zionism with racism - but I failed to read enough of the link (I was trying to get the post up quickly) so I didn’t notice the other UN Resolution…so, I would call it so much “intellectual dishonesty” as opposed to “quick-posting” and just missing something.
But, even though it may have been overturned, I think it is still important to understand the horrible effects that Zionism has had on the land of this area of the Middle East and on the Palestinians.
The Zionist slogan was: “A land without a people, for a people without a land.” And it was most certainly NOT a land without a people. When a movement like Zionism promotes the settlement of ONE people on the land of ANOTHER people, to the extent that the OTHER people are being expelled from their land…whether or not the UN currently believes it’s a racist program, one should be able to look at it and wonder if something isn’t a little wrong with that.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:00 am
Songstress: Wow….Jesus was Jewish? So we should side with Israel. Hmm, I wish someone had explained it to me like that before - it all makes so much sense. Sorry, that’s a little (well, more than a little) tongue in cheek response to your comment. Although, I really don’t know how to honestly respond to that.
The first thing that automatically sticks out in all of this is the fact that however you look at it, what Israel is currently doing to the Palestinian people…it is simply oppressive. And whether Jesus was Jewish or not, he would not stand for the oppression of people if he were walking in these lands again today. So, as to Jesus being Jewish, I’d say that really has nothing to do with the situation. On the whole, this is not a religious issue. And secondly, just because in the Hebrew Bible we hear about the Jews being “God’s chosen people” this does nothing to validate what the current government of Israel is doing to these people.
I love how so many people like to talk about the fact of how Palestinians want to eradicate the “Jews” – and even if this is something that was stated by Palestinian “terrorists” or “extremists” – I would say that this is not the view on a whole. Palestinians here have accepted the fact that coexistence is something that they are going to have to live with – and they are okay with that. I think that THAT is the majority opinion – so hearing arguments for Israel based on the minority opinion of some Palestinians – that doesn’t make sense.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:01 am
Jeff: I don’t believe that the only alternative to believing her is to say that she’s lying. I think an alternative to that would to believe that she simply doesn’t know all the ‘facts on the ground’ (as people like to say around here). That she hasn’t really seen how her tightly-held-onto-beliefs are radically affecting societies, families, villages and the entire way of life for an entire people group just a few kilometers away from her comfy settlement life.
I will say that maybe she does feel threatened; but what is hard for me to believe is HOW she could feel threatened, when I’ve driven repeatedly past Maale Adumim and seen the beautiful, paved, protected road by which she must enter the settlement. And it’s extremely hard for me to not try to compare her level of feeling threatened, to that which many Palestinians daily experience, as they have to cross checkpoints just to go to school or work, always wondering if they will be harassed, or held for absolutely no reason.
You are right on one thing – it IS hard to see the gray in this situation when you are living where I am living, hearing the stories I’m hearing and meeting with the groups I’m meeting with. I think that meeting with this Zionist woman was helpful in hearing another perspective, and I DO want to be aware of the gray – I just think that no matter how much gray there is, it’s still hard to see this conflict as a ‘balanced’ situation when you look at the situation of the Palestinians versus the power of Israel.
And Jeff…that was just LOW to bring Chris P. into this. But maybe that’s okay. No Kellen, don’t worry – I will not be turning into a Chris P., but I think it’s okay to be a fundamentalist when it comes to caring about solidarity, compassion, oppression and injustices in this world.
July 24th, 2005 at 9:26 pm
“When a movement like Zionism promotes the settlement of ONE people on the land of ANOTHER people, to the extent that the OTHER people are being expelled from their land…”
I didn’t know legally buying land from Arabs was a crime against humanity . . . look it up. that’s how they acquired the land. Oh, and incidentally, the land they purchased was mostly unused sand dunes and swampland . . . look it up.
when the Nation of Israel was created by the UN it wasn’t alone. ALSO, a Palestinian nation was created but they refused it out of their own stiff necked pride and anti-Semitism . . . did you miss that part in favor of a quick post!
The actual “expulsion” of the Pal’s didn’t occur until the ‘67 War when, incidentally enough, ISRAEL WAS INVADED BY THE ARABS . . . look it up.
The abominable sneak attack called on Yom Kippur didn’t work in 72 so Arafat turned to terrorism . . . remember that?
You’ve already discredited yourself with your research in my book.
“whether or not the UN currently believes it’s a racist program, one should be able to look at it and wonder if something isn’t a little wrong with that.”
Oh, I see, you only care what the UN says when it’s against Israel . . . I get it now.
“I think it’s okay to be a fundamentalist when it comes to caring about solidarity, compassion, oppression and injustices in this world.”
This isn’t about solidarity it’s about Ideology . . . when you can shed tears for both Israel and the Pal’s then you can claim solidarity. And please stop saying that you do that already because your words say otherwise.
July 24th, 2005 at 11:40 pm
Something I don’t think I’ve read here yet that is interesting as people generalize the Israelis and Palestinians, is the understanding I have that there are actually a good amount of Israelis that want the settlers out of the disputed land, as well. It takes an incredible amount of money to keep these people protected and as far as I understand, there is growing resentment towards this… especially because the settlers, at least, the ideological ones, are really a very small, extremist minority within a pretty secular country. Important to note as well is that Arab Israeli citizens are treated so differently than Jewish Israeli citizens… citizens of the same country treated differently on the basis of….? Sure, people on both sides are hurt by conflict… as in any conflict, right? But what’s the harm in admitting that a government might be acting more than a little screwy?
I’m just so shocked that so many commenters here are unmoved by the plight of the Palestinians, which gets little to no news coverage in the mainstream media. What makes people so sure that Israel is in the right, and so unwilling to consider otherwise?
July 26th, 2005 at 10:50 am
I agree with David that this conflict is not new nor is it unique to this area or these people. We’ve got the same “us vs. them” spirit here in the US. I’m guessing we could find it anywhere. It’s destructive… at best. How will unity and peace ever be achieved if we cannot consider what the ‘other’ feels, needs, is experiencing. ‘Melissa’ wants security, respect, a peaceful life. I’m guessing that is what the majority of both Palestinians and Israelis want.
Adam, I am proud of you for ‘being with’ these people and taking the time to understand their concerns.