I left NPM for the same reasons…

1. Small Group Facillitators- only have to fill out an application and do short interview. NPM also considers facillitators the pastors of the group. Although they are there to facilitate if you have questions or problems with fellow members they are supposed to pastor you in that sense. I’ve heard of several incidents where the small group leaders lead the group in unbiblical truths. I know of many leaders who party and drink on weekends with their groups, they don’t see anything wrong with it. I’m not saying they are all like that but when there aren’t many requirements to being a “pastor” something is bound to happen. This is true of children’s small group leaders as well.

2. Music- I have heard in the children’s minitries where secular music will be played for the kids while they play and before service. I’ve heard Beyonce, Kanye West and beats to rap songs played. I don’t agree with secular music played in the main auditorium either but the children’s music just blew me away.

3. NPM churches are for the unchurched but I do no t believe you need to conform to the unchurched to reach them. Jesus visited the unchurched but he did not conform to them.

4. I think Andy is a good man and is trying to please God in his ministry but I don’t think He’s aware of what is going on int the church and I also agree that the sermons are watered down and are used as apologetics for the unchurched and how the bible is a good handbook for a good life rather than also showing His commands and the hard things to swallow that are part of God’s majesty and part of the whole Gospel

You people put yourself ahead of everything else, complaining about how big the service is and the worship styles and how everything makes YOU feel. The saints are able to worship God while being tortured but you can’t do it because theirs too many other Christians in the room? That’s pathetic. But yea read that book. Or Pod cast it, the podcast is called practically speaking.

One of the many blogs I read every day is pomusings. I enjoy this blog, but I often disagree with where the author is coming from. Anyway this post is quite amusing, because Andy Stanley actually responds. And delivers a great response.

Guy’s the Hijacking of Adam B. Cleaveland’s Blog is over. I visited the blog today and noticed that Andy’s last chance to communicate with us ended yesterday. Well it was good while it lasted. Andy thanks for sharing your priceless

Guy’s the Hijacking of Adam B. Cleaveland’s Blog is over. I visited the blog today and noticed that Andy’s last chance to communicate with us ended yesterday. Wow what happened is this something that good old Cleave had to do

peace

mark

Andy, thanks for the wisdom and insights. You really need to have a blog of your own. Don’t make us wait for another conference to hear this kind of stuff from you. I’ll pay for it if necessary. ;)

I have had the privilege of attending almost every church mentioned in this discussion. My father grew up at First Baptist Atlanta where Andy’s father pastors and I grew up several blocks from the Stanleys. I spent a significant amount of my chidhood at Perimeter Church which started in a tiny office space in the late ’70s and has now spawned dozens of churches in Atlanta and has become a megachurch in its own right. I spent high school at Westminster Pres. in Atlanta, a tiny 150+ church, spent time at medium sized churches in Greenville,SC, and at small churches in southern California. I’m now at Intown Community Church in Atlanta. I have visited Northpoint, Buckhead Church, Church of the Apostles, Willow Creek, Redeemer in NYC, and more that I have forgotten.

I mention all these experiences because they have taught me that there is no right way to “do church”. There is no right size. There is no right worship style. There is no right sermon style. And THAT IS OK.

You see, context is very important. I have noticed many people criticize various elements of the worship service at Northpoint. But the context has a lot to do with this. For those of you who have not spent much time in the South, Christianity is a cultural thing here. I remember thinking in college at Auburn University that we had to first convince people that they were NOT Christian before sharing the Gospel with them. Because of this cultural issue, many people in the south have various hangups or issues with their conception of “traditional church”. So what is wrong with lowering some of these obstacles?

I’m amazed at the sense that some people in this discussion have that assume that certain church things are Biblical when in fact they are cultural. There is nothing Biblical about having crosses in your church, having a sermon, passing an offering plate, having an “invitational”, or doing music in any particular way. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with these things, but they don’t constitute the Gospel. Does it matter what people wear to church? No. Does it matter that people walk in with Starbucks coffee? No. Does it matter if you like the musical style? No. Does it matter if the sermon is academic enough in nature? No.

Would Tim Keller’s model in NYC work in Atlanta? Not without some major tweaking. Would Andy Stanley draw such a huge crowd in SF? Maybe not. Would Bill Hybels have the same success in Seattle? Doubtful.

The context matters, people. In this manner, each of these people are being “missional”, as Tim might say.

Is Northpoint the church for me? Not really. And that is fine. It doesn’t need to be. Do I have any doubt that Andy is doing God’s will? None.

Peace,
Dignan
Dignan’s 75 Year Plan

How is the satellite in Dothan going? Curious as to how often “guest” speakers are in the satellite meetings?

PS Anyone with T. Lowe on staff must be doing something right!

Troy

Feel free to post whatever you want on my blog (www.bobfranquiz.com). It’s yours whenever you want to talk about something. This dialogue has been hugely helpful to me and my staff who have also been reading this (and I’m sure many others). Thank you for posting some great stuff here. And Adam, thanks for being our host…

Bob

My thought was more in line with this:
if all ex-harvesters fear all pastors who claim to have heard from God – and
if all pastors fear claiming to have heard from God because of the fear it causes ex-harvesters or
if pastors fear hearing from God because they might become like the man you described or
if ex-harvesters fear hearing from God because they might misinterpret what He is saying,
I can see a cycle that can move beyond healthy discernment and becomes something that replaces healthy Biblical relationships within the church. (and the relationship between the church and God).

Adam – you’ve been an awesome, generous and patient host!! Thanks for a great couple of weeks of blogging!!! :)

Grace and Peace,
metro

I agree it would be unfortunate for any to draw a wrong conclusion and your post has helped me to realize that my initial attempt at tactfullness could contribute to that end. I still do not wish to name the pastor, but below are more specific examples that clarify the context under which I fully agree with Andy (but please recognize that I in no way claim to speak for him):

I believe in the doctrine of The Priesthood of All Believers:

“Every Christian has direct access to God in prayer through Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, and that there is no mediator between God and man other than Jesus Christ (Heb 4.16; 1 Tim 2.5; Rev 1.6).” (Luther Rice Seminary Doctrinal Statement)

I do not believe the following quote, from the pastor I referenced, is in any way a revelation of God to a “modern day prophet”:

“The Lord said to me tonight for those of you that really plant and hear what sister [Name Deleted] said and you’re willing to obey, you that have cancer in your home. I know this sounds enormous and I pray before God that you understand. Now I speak as a prophet. When he asked the little woman to give the last that she had. I speak as a prophet to those who have cancer anywhere in your family, anywhere in your life, that if you will obey God tonight God promised me there will be thousands of people under the sound of my voice that will be healed of cancer…As a prophet of God I’m asking you to give what you got in your hand. I’m asking you tonight to say, ‘God, I’ve heard what the word of God says, [believe] the prophet and I will prosper…If you will follow what God has said, I tell you right now letters will pour into TBN and they’ll be telling you cancer has been healed all over this country! And they’ll say, ‘What happened?’ Well, the prophet of God aid it was going to happen!” (Name Deleted, TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon November 1, 2004)

Doesn’t God reveal Himself to us individually – during times of prayerful solitude with Him? Many churches pay for their pastors to have a sabatical – a time to get away and go and hear from God on behalf of their ministry and congregation. It happens everywhere – all the time.

Many seminarians will find themselves pressured by their future congregations and leadership teams to do just that. And surely Andy, you have done the same for your church? Have’nt you?

Seminarians here who read those words, might draw the conclusion that God only speaks through committees and boards and never to a leader alone. But the whole Bible is based upon spiritual leaders hearing from God (privately) and speaking it (publically). Think of the prophets. Think of the disciples.

Some who now claim to hear – perhaps did hear God at one time. But fell away under the heady seduction of the powerful position of leadership. And became corrupt and abusing leaders, not worthy to lead God’s church. But that doesn’t always happen.

Maybe better advice would be to pray for Christian leadership that they will not fall into sin. Pray for discernment that you will know when the boundaries in leadership have been crossed. Pray when to know to confront leadership. Pray for God to show you if you should run from such ministry. Pray that you will never fall into such temptation in your own ministry. But know that it could also happen to you.