While in Atlanta last weekend, Mark, Sarah and I went to North Point Community Church, where Andy Stanley is the pastor. It was definitely my first megachurch experience. Sarah actually didn’t think the sermon was all that bad, and…it wasn’t. But, I just know I couldn’t attend a church like that. It was pretty hard to find a good seat because everyone just had rows and rows of seats saved (any theological thoughts on seat-saving in worship?). It’s hard to have any type of community there, unless you’re actively involved in one of the community/small groups. I didn’t really like going to church and having it feel like I was going to a concert or huge convention (complete with the parking lot attendants, orange vests and everything). We were in the auditorium that Andy was preaching in, but…there were a few more thousand people in the opposite auditorium where Andy’s sermon was fed into. Again, just not the type of interaction I want with my pastor (or, if I was the pastor, with the body in the church).
I’m not going to get into some “Megachurches suck and they’re a complete waste of time and space!” type of rant. I just know that for myself…yah, definitely not a megachurch kind of guy. There is no way that I could handle pastoring a church that big, and I most definitely would not want to be a member of a church that large…
Definitely an interesting experience though. Anyone else been there? Anyone else have any megachurch experiences that were bad…good…neutral?
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Adam, one of my friends did an internship with Northpoint and she told me that no one, I mean no one, in the church is allowed to meet with Andy. One of the overlooked facets of megachurch life is that the pastors are not pastors, they are CEOs. How can you preach every Sunday in a real and vibrant way to a church that you don’t even know? I’m sure Andy has droves of informers who keep him up to date about the latest needs of the congregation, but still. I don’t want to follow a shepherd who doesn’t smell like the sheep! But, I guess when one is only spouting propositional truths that have been inappropriately extracted from the Bible, it doesn’t matter if you don’t have any contact with the church proper.
My wife and I were both part of various megachurches for several years, and unfortunately it is largely in spite of these churches that our faith survives! Our experience has been that churches this large by necessity begin to assume more of a corporation-like character, and the pastor becomes a CEO of sorts, and not a shepherd. I for one must question their benefit. On a side note, incidentally my wife’s old [mega church] youth pastor co-wrote a book with Mr. Stanley.
FYI, the Jake and I must have posted simultaneously – interesting that we would both use “CEO” to characterise the pastor-figure . . .
Isn’t any church larger than about 40 people really a megachurch in the sense that community begins breaking down and can usually only be found if you’re “actively involved in one of the community/small groups”? My experiences in churches of 800, 600 and now a church of 150 is that real community is found outside of the service in small enclaves of Christian communion-ity. I think the two things about megachurches that offend our sensibilities are the orange parking vests and the difficulty in imagining that the service (and the pastor’s message) are really directed at ME. This is easier to do in smaller churches, but the community still is only present if I find myself in a smaller enclave.
Interestingly, Brian Wren led our Preaching and Worship class today and lectured on the different formats for worship: the classical, the classical minus weekly communion, the frontier style that ends with an altar call, and the seeker style. The seeker style struck me immediately because I think it describes North Point so well. It is a format for worship where everything leads up to a message and a response is not required – it is simply hoped that those present will seek further. My problem with a megachurch, aside from those already mentioned is I don’t think the sermon was a sermon. Adam, you are right, I didn’t think it was bad – my other experiences of megachurch and evangelical church have been aggressive ones where people tried to save me, which I just resent for some reason. But, I don’t think Andy was working through the scripture to preach the Word. I felt like he had a point and he used scripture to support it. I didn’t disagree with his point (God’s up to something and you’re invited), and I appreciated that he left it more open than he could have, but I didn’t feel like he wrestled with the text or helped us to wrestle with the text. Maybe I’m a little too high church, but as intriguing as it was for me, I didn’t feel like I worshiped.
http://www.northpoint.org/sermonaudio
here’s the link to the actual audio of the sermon by Stanley from this Sunday…
several of my friends went to North Point. I went there once with a group of girls that I was involved in Intervarsity with. It was SOOOOOO big. I was incredibly uncomfortable there.
I went back twice because they raved about how wonderful it was and I wanted to see what it was that they liked so much about it. I couldn’t figgure it out.
I like small intimate settings for worship. I like to be able to have the chance to get to know everyone I worship with. I guess I just feel like the unity aspect is completely lacking at churches that are that big because there is no way to ever possibly get to know everyone.
i don’t know…. i’m still figuring out this whole megachurch thing. i don’t think i would be all that comfortable in a church of a thousand people, but there are interesting studies out there that show that your circle of connected relationships in a faith community is usually around 20ish. no matter the size…. 50 or 5000. usually still the same size ‘group’ of friends. i find that interesting.
Growing up at Willow Creek, I have a lot of experience with megachurches. I left the Chicago area to go to school in California (Azusa Pacific), and for a while out here I was attending megachurches. I really became frustrated with the large church feel, especially the lack of community and no relationship with the pastor. So my wife and I have finally found a church of about 200 people that we like, and more importantly has a sense of community.
Interestingly, for my Sociology Research Methods class during my undergrad, I did a research project with a classmate on small groups in megachurches, and whether or not they created any sense of community. Sadly, at least in the church that we looked at, the small groups completely failed at their aim of creating community. (e-mail me if you are interested in seeing it) Needless to say, I will not be attending a megachurch anytime soon.
usually around 20ish. no matter the size
I agree with this. But there is still a very different feel at a church of 200 people and a church of 15,000. I recognize pretty much everyone at church every weekend, and I know many of them. I may not have close connections with them, but I have talked to them. I recognize when there are new people, I know that pastor, and people are encouraged to get involved. It is a much more intimate feel.
So I have real “connections” with about 20 people in the church, but I have some connections with most people in the church. You cannot say that in a church with thousands of attendees.
there are pros and cons to all kinds of churches. megachurches aren’t inherently bad – they just bring a different perspective to church. the same with a small church – they just bring a different perspective to church. both groups meet a certain group of people where they are, and however they function, hopefully impact their congregants life’s journey. being emergent or postmodern or postchristian or postwhatever, we may tend to be focused more on a smaller community which is ok. we probably should find where we fit best in our own context and focus on important things in our world like some of the other thoughts adam has written about.
megachurches aren’t inherently bad – they just bring a different perspective to church
I agree with this. Having grown up at Willow Creek, I know that I would not go there again if I lived back in the Chicago area. At the same time I also see the impact that Willow had on me. It was what I needed at that time.
At the emergent convention last year, I remember Jonny Baker saying that if his church reached over 50, they would prob need to split. While things are certainly different over in the UK, I wonder what this means for alt.worship in the States.
In the fall, a weekly gathering called 7:22 for singles in Atlanta that meets at North point, attempted a service based on silence. I think it pretty much flopped..Too many people? Maybe..but also there was the problem of attempting a service that encourages worship (freedom of movement, openness, creativity, etc.) which the presuppositions of the regular gathering prevent…
Mark
I don’t like megachurches either, but to places like a Willowcreek, their original intention was not to be “Mega” it just turned in to that, and then everyone tried to model it. My parents have been going to a MegaBaptist church in NC, and they have a more intimate community within their small group, than they ever had at their home church of 300 folks(which they were a part of for 45 years). The worship services at Six Flags over Jesus is tough for me, but I am delighted that they have smaller communities for my parents to lean on.
I think everyone needs to remember something – CHECK THE FRUIT ON THE TREE! What this chuch is doing is working. People are hearing great things about our Lord and about life. NP has created an environment to attract those young people that are wondering what church is all about. I agree with shoog (above). Is the term MEGA as referred to as a negative? Is it wrong to have your “cup runeth over” with people that are searching for something? In my opinion if you become this so called MEGA CHURCH you are doing something right. Again, remember in all aspects of life “Check the Fruit on the Tree”!
I attend North Point Community Church and will never ever leave there. It is the most amazing church I have ever attended. It is definitely the place for those who “dont do church”. I surely dont “do church” and cant imagine anyone ever wanting to–UGH!
Yeah, it’s huge. Dosent matter though. You gotta get involved in a small group anyway–no matter where you attend. No other way to grow and develop close, dependant relationships where you can experience life together with your brothers and sisters. Any church with over 20 people—forget about it. You gotta get in a small group. That is God’s model for the church as shown in the book of Acts.
P.S. Andy Stanley is a remarkable communicator. Incredibly humble and genuine. His God given Gift is “teaching” and so that’s what he does. He leaves the pastoring to those with the God given gift for it.
I have been a believer for 30 years and have never experienced God like I have at North Point. Not even close.
P.S. The fruit at North Point is remarkable.
I just happened to catch this site as I was playing around on Google. It saddens me to read fellow christians denouncing Northpoint simply because it does not feel comfortable to them. Like it or not Northpoint is a seekers church who’s main purpose is to bring people to a lasting relationship with God. Just visit on any Sunday and it will become quite clear to you that it is working. Isn’t that what this is all about – saving souls. The Sunday services are designed to open the door to seekers and create a desire for them to seek God. Fellowship and bible study are more a part of the small groups. I hope that you all will find more positive things to discuss rather than calling the kettle black.
“Just visit on any Sunday and it will become quite clear to you that it is working.”
I’ve visited many Sundays and this is not clear to me. How should it be?
“Isn’t that what this is all about – saving souls.”
Its all about salvation. Salvation is much more than just saving souls. Salvation is historical-eternal, bodily-spiritual, individual-communal as well as Trinitarian in nature. By reducing salvation to only saving souls (which Northpoint may be good at), we are reducing the gospel and thus reducing God….
For example, why has Northpoint only started satallites in suburban areas? What about the inner city? What are the poorer parts of Atlanta? Where is the ethnic diversity on stage? These are all part of the salvation that God brings…
mark
I’m a Romanian pastor and I had the unique chance to participate at a pastoral conference with Andy Stanley about ‘The Iressistible Church’, conference who took place this past week.
As I read your various comments I realise that once again prophets are not welcomed in their native area… Despite some positive comments, your negative view is almost maladive. I wonder if in general you are willing to be a part of the solution or you really are a part of the problem and that’s why you need a Church to softly take care of your needs…
I heard from Andy that his Church membership counts only 4,500… The other people are unchurched attracted by this great ministry. Tell me which Church will attract at it’s Sunday service more visitors than the number of members? I grow up in a Church where for a visitor to have a chance to get the message he first had to ‘suffer’ a cultural barrier generated by the selfish perspective of the Church members who designed such as service to over-feed them, with no care about unsaved. That’s noth the case of North Point.
One more word. Many conferences I went in the past, with famous speakers, were informational… This one with Andy has been transformational. Definitely my life has been changed during the three days conference.
I don’t wonder about the lack of impact on the life of those who briefly visited the NPCC, already with a bad view about Mega Churches. In order to judge it you have to know it’s mission statement and to evaluate the way that’s fulfilled or not.
But if you went there looking for a creche, I think you missed the address.
Me, MY, I, I want, I feel comfortable with, me, me, me, me. – It seems that all I hear from the people who don’t like what happens at places like Willow, Northpoint, Saddleback etc., is that it doesn’t appeal to them. In one way that is OK, but if the really cool thing is if you hang around Willow, Northpoint, or Saddleback long enough you find out that as Rick Warren says on the first page of his book “It ain’t about you!”
The reason the buildings are so full at these places is that their leaders have been blessed by God to be able to create environments where people are connected to God, connected to each other (if they want to be!), and enabled to reach thier world for Christ.
So what if I can’t meet personally with Andy Stanley (why a I so important) – but if I as much make a phone call to NPCC and express a need, there are multitudes of people who will listen to me and guide me, and help me. The need to be able to meet “the pastor” is a self-centered ego trip.
I am so glad to be a part of what God is doing at Northpoint – I am so Glad that Andy Stanley cared enough to create an environment where I can envite my co-workers to participate in a important part of my life and not have to bring a cultural interpreter.
One thing I want to add is that Northpoint is not a “seeker” church – it cannot be so narrowly defined – Northpoint is simply a church – I have been a christ follower for over 30 years and the work of this church continues to help me deepen my walk and help me follow Him more. I literally would not who I am without the community there.
I was a member at NPCC until I recently moved to Louisiana. I think that you might be missing the whold point altogether. Northpoint has a vision and a mission and it sticks to it. Here is the mission…
The mission of North Point is to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. We accomplish this by creating irresistible environments led by skilled staff and volunteers. To find out more about our three key ministry environments read below.
foy•er (foi’ er, foi ya’) n. an entry. — It’s the place in your home that serves as the welcome area for guests and new friends. It’s the first step, and it’s often your only chance to make your guests feel comfortable enough to return. That’s exactly how we’ve designed our entry environments at North Point Community Church. Our Sunday morning worship services are “foyer” environments. We want our guests to come back, so we do everything with them in mind. Each area of our church also has its own foyer: middle school has Xtreme, high school has Rush Hour, families have KidStuf, and singles have 7:22. These environments are where most people will experience NPCC for the first time, and they serve as the perfect place to introduce newcomers to the life of North Point Community Church. So, come on in …
liv‚Ä¢ing room (liv‚Äôing room) n. a room in a home, with sofas, chairs, etc., used for social activities, entertaining guests, etc. When guests arrive and are welcomed into your home, you invite them into the living room. Everyone finds a comfortable place to sit, and the interaction begins. At North Point Community Church, this is where you connect with people like yourself. Smaller and more interactive than the foyer environment, these gatherings offer genuine opportunity to begin friendships…just like the living room in your home. For single adults, this environment is called FUSiON. For married adults, there is MarriedLife Live. The living room events for students are Xtreme and Inside Out, and for college students it is College Connection. Come into the living room and have a seat…
kitch•en (kich’en) n. a room or place for the preparation and cooking of food. — Webster’s definition doesn’t help us much, does it? But think about it. What is the most popular room in your home? Where do you end up when friends or family come over? The kitchen. This is where lasting friendships are made. And that’s the kind of environment we are striving for in our small groups. Small groups are where people meet regularly for Bible study and prayer, and commit to accountability, friendship and support. They are the safe place to open your heart, share your life, and ask the tough questions. Small group opportunities for adults include community groups, Starting Point, and Crown. For students, small group time happens during Inside Out, Xtreme, and UpStreet Kids. Small groups are the place where ministry happens at North Point Community Church. And we want to help you get there.
Northpoint is a large church. But Northoint provides community in a way that works very well. To be a member of Northpoint you not only attend the worship service on Sunday, but you attend community groups as well as small groups. You can’t have community with
4,000 plus members. And they know that. That is why they have created environments to have community. Even if you were at a church of 50 people (you can’t possibly have intimate fellowship with all 50 members) And by the way Andy does not refuse to meet with members of the church. I have not only met Andy, but e-mailed him when I had a concern about one of his sermons and he responded to my concern.
I believe in ACTS 2:42-47 community. I know that NPCC does as well. I also know that we can share our opinions, but the truth is NPCC is doing a wonderful job of reaching the lost for Christ, especially those who have been turned off to the church completely because of their previous church experiences. I believe as the body of Christ we are to love the church and even though there are different kinds of churches. (charismatic, traditional, small, large, seeker-sensitive etc…) I am not saying to condone any activity that is not in accordance to the scripture, but by attending Northpoint one time, you did not get a real picture of Northpoint. You did not attend a community group or a small group. This is where real fellowship and community occurs. When you go to church on Sunday’s when does community occur? Worshipping together with the body! Yes, but you don’t get to share the real life struggles and joys until you get in an intimate setting with less people.
I used to lead HS ministry at NPCC and I was on the ministry team for 7:22 (praying for young adults after the service). Real life change happens at NPCC. Maybe you could not be a part of this type of an environment, but you should first understand the church before making a complete decision. NPCC has purpose and vision! And I am sure if you talk to the staff it would be more important for someone to attend a small group and community group then to attend church on Sunday morning.
One more thing. If you are not involved in the lives of your community and meeting with them, sharing in their sorrows and joys, are you really in a church? When I attended Northpoint I had all of that and then some. Everyone can be utilized in their giftings in a small group / community group setting. You just have to step out of the foyer and into the living room and then into the kitchen!!!!!
More thoughts… Church is not about a building, it is about community. I suggest you research the Chinese Church (Back to Jerusalem movement and read a book by brother Yun) you probably will not find theologian’s and big church buildings, but you will find believers meeting in homes united in Christ. (unlike our denominational walls that seperates and divides us). Where is the church growing? Not in America!!!! Think about these things… It would just be another interesting conversation to see what anyone thinks on the issue of unity in the church and how that can be achieved….
Hey I am coming only with thoughts and discussion. No hard feelings, just my thoughts. And you know I am definitely open to others thoughts!!!!
Correction on something I wrote…
I said…”And I am sure if you talk to the staff it would be more important for someone to attend a small group and community group then to attend church on Sunday morning.”
I meant to say that the three are equally important… But that if you go to church on Sunday morning you also need to be a part of a community group and small group as well!
So replace more with equally! I would not want to miss out the worship….
Tara,
while I agree that one would be remiss to place judgment upon any church with out attending, I would contend (being that I was a staff member of a church that sounds relatively familiar to NP) there is something intrinsically wrong with church only functioning properly by attending all “three” NP aspects. Where is the time for relationships outside of church (please don’t respond this is a perfect time to invite)? Time for family? WHat if you are apart of a ministry team? Do you attend all three aspects, in addition to leadership meetings and outside ministry events? What if you’re married? Have kids? A full-time job? Church like that ends up filling up the schedule and leaving little time for the quality (in my experiance). And God forbide you happen to miss out on the occasional service or event.
But I do agree that church is about the people not the building, however, when bills start rolling in, no matter what point the discourse starts at, the building becomes all consuming. If church is really about community, then why not dissect it into many little communities difusse throughout the city it’s in. Empower the lay people. Have service in homes or in smaller enviornments as to be conducive to relationships. My point here is, is size really conducive to one’s “mission”? Because size is not the barometer once epoused by Hybell’s and the purpose driven pastors.
Isn’t it neat when something you write just seems to live on and on….
I’ve attended both NPCC and Saddleback, but not been a member of either. I found Saddleback rather uninviting but NP seemed very community centered. Saddleback, while I agree with many of their principles would not likely be a place I joined, NPCC whould be.
Adam began not by denouncing NPCC, just saying it wasn’t for him.
I appreciate Bob’s post about the “self-centered-ness” of some church goers. In my opinion, Sunday morning worship services should be about Worship. Not the one time during the week when you come to get “filled-up” or educated on the word, but a time when you come together with others who have been worship all week long and join in a mighty worship experince to God. When this happens, it’s truely something to see and will attract people – both church goers and unchurched.
Sadly though, many people seem to look at church like a social club. To often I hear things like “I recognize pretty much everyone at church every weekend, and I know many of them.” That saddens me. It saddens me that I recognize pretty much everyone at my church – it means we’re not being effective at reaching out to the community.
Lastly to address the “church filling up the schedule” post….The week is 168 hours long, the month 720. A few hours here and there in church, a leadership meeting, and doing some ministry each month will not total 72 hours…and God deserves at least that much.
Jesse,
I agree that God deserves all we’ve got but are you telling me that it’s within that which I mentioned? And as for knowing everyone at a church service being sad, does that mean that the only way a church as a collective or as an individual being is “effective” when souls become quantifiable?
Don’t confuse the hours of the week becoming dictated by the church as necessarily dictated by God. Isn’t He “worth” that? Yes, but that mind set is the very one people run from and feel persecuted by when life becomes difficult, leadership becomes cumbersome and those you serve with begin administering grace with the question, “so where have you been?” The trap here is measuring someone else’s life within my own context. That is not what church is about.
NP may be great (and by the sound of it, it is), but your use of words and ideas like worship (which is to be a daily occurence, not something within the static parameters of Sunday only), effective, and “doing ministry” seem to be the very reasons why many are rethinking how church is done.
I attended NPCC for the first time this morning. It was definitely overwhelmingly large, but not as large as I had thought by reading some of the postings above. I had expected a Joel Osteen type of size, and it wasn’t that… but I found out that I was in only one of the auditoriums :-)
It was a different experience. Very much targeting the younger generation, which I still claim to be a part of at 39. My young son enjoyed the Christian rock music and all of the lights. The sermon wasn’t really what I would call a traditional sermon, it was more of the Osteen “inspirational” type of thing, but I was pleased that it actually did involve scripture. I have been attending a UMC church and the minister there preaches for about 15 to 20 minutes on a good day and there is no looking up of scripture.
I’m still standing on the fence with the experience. I felt a little resentful seeing people walking around in short pants and sneakers, but maybe attire isn’t really important. Maybe it’s my traditional upbringing that made me feel like the ultra laid back style somehow cheapened the message. I’m a laid back sort of guy, but I take my worship very seriously, and I don’t like being in a church that makes it more trendy than necessary…as it seems to attract the type of people that come for the wrong reasons and don’t let the Word have an impact on their lifestyle and faith. But it’s too soon for me to really be able to judge NPCC in that regard. I’m going to attend a few more times to see if I can get a better idea. I may look into the smaller groups as well. If it seems to be more fluff and motivational speaking than worshipping of the Lord, then I’ll move on to another church…after all, you can get that sort of thing by listening to a Tony Robins CD. But if I find that it’s the real deal, I’m going to make it my home.
A few ideas to consider:
- Does God want our heart or our suit and tie?
- Why must a church be considered good only if me, myself, and I find it enjoyable (i.e. I like this worship song, I don’t like this worship song) Could you be missing the point that the church exists to glorify GOD and not ME?
- Worship is “your response to who God is and what He has done” and it doesn’t just take place on Sunday. Saying that you didn’t feel like you “worshipped” at church is a misunderstanding that worship is what you do every day in every detail.
- In many cases large churches that have non-approachable pastors are actually functioning at peak performance because the pastor’s role is to COMMUNICATE in a powerful way the truth of the gospel. If the pastor is overcome with hundreds of people who want to meet with him then he is taken away from his area of giftedness in speaking. Powerful communicators need to do what they do best….communicate….then the people will come.
I had my first visit to North Point this weekend and was amazed. It was one of the best worship experiences I have ever had.
Do I think less of them because I couldn’t meet Andy? No Way. Look at the Bible, even Moses was rightly counseled to step back and only take the ‘difficult cases’ that others couldn’t handle to prevent a burden he couldn‚Äôt handle well. It’s not reasonable to expect Andy or any other minister with 10,000+ to shepherd to be easily accessible. It would be counterproductive. It’s not about him, it’s about HIM. And meeting Andy Stanley shouldn’t make a difference to someone hoping to meet Christ. His job is to cast vision to the congregation and his organization. He does that VERY well on stage and behind the scenes.
I’d suggest you read Creating Community by Andy Stanley and Bill Willits. It’s clear to me after reading those that if you don’t get involved in a small group at NP, you’re missing out on at least half.
The original poster said “It’s hard to have any type of community there, unless you’re actively involved in one of the community/small groups.” Correct! So get in a group. Corporate worship can be effective with 50 or 50,000 people. Community is not able to take place at anything above 20 or so people. You must be able to separate community from worship in your mind for this model to work. That was easy for me.
Sean
Wow.
God drew me to NPCC about seven years ago. I was lost, dead in my sins, without hope of salvation or even hope for tomorrow. Of course on the surface, my life appeared wonderful and it seemed I had everything. An ex-Catholic, I’d given up on a distant, irrelevant, ritual-loving God. I hadn’t really prayed or attended a ‘church’ service of any kind for almost a decade.
For almost two whole years I sat in the back of NPCC on Sundays, anonymous. Nobody knew me, but I had never felt known by God like this. I listened to the Word of God being preached with authority for the first time in my life. There were lots of other people there, but it might as well have been just me, there with God. He spoke directly to me through his Word time after time. I didn’t understand how this was possible! I cried a lot.
Gently, lovingly, my heavenly Father brought me to a place of surrender, of complete trust in Christ and His work on the cross. That was in July 2000.
NPCC does not exist to provide an awesome ‘worship experience’ for an hour on Sunday morning. Our God is passionate about seeking and saving the lost. So am I. I was the lost. People everywhere are desperate for truth, lost without Jesus, destined for eternal separation from God. It’s not trivial, and it’s not about numbers.
I’m no theological genius, but I do know that.
I can live without Andy Stanley. I don’t even like crowds. I can survive without loud worship bands, I can even live without my community group. But I can’t imagine my life without Christ, my savior. I was introduced to Him at NPCC. For that I am eternally grateful.
Kristen
Amen Kristen. I wrote a comment earlier about my first experience at NPCC. I have to admit, I have been every Sunday since. Andy’s message is definitely what got me to keep returning. He’s not an egomaniac. He’s more like the guy next door, just a humble, normal sort of fellow. However, he understands where traditional churches and definitely religion have failed. His father was a minister, so he has quite a background in the faith. NPCC is really about (1) your relationship with Jesus Christ and (2) a community of caring and connecting people. I’m staying. This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. Sure, there are things that aren’t perfect about the place, like people walking into the worship service with Starbucks cups, but in the grand scheme of things, who cares? It’s not about judgements, or rituals, or strict rules and rites. It’s about YOU and Christ. If they took away the praise band and all of the “cool” things about the church, it’s STILL be about YOU and Christ. It’s not about Andy, or being trendy, or the loud music. It’s about YOU and Christ. Period. Praise God. Amen.
Please, if you are reading this…come to a service twice. Why twice? Because the first time you will be overwhelmed and will need to digest it all. The second time, it will click.
I re-read all of the comments in this thread, and have to comment one last time on one of the first ones…posted by Robert. It was that Andy didn’t really have a “sermon”, but rather spoke his own opinion and used the Bible to support it. I have to share with you my experience at a Methodist church that led me to NPCC in the first place. The services there were as traditional as you can get. Hymns, prayer, creeds, bla bla bla. The pastor “preached” for about 15 minutes TOPS. He never actually said ANYTHING of substance. It was the most worthless fluff I have ever heard. I left there every Sunday wondering what the sermon was even about. It wasn’t some little hole in the wall church either. It’s a prominent church in the community…but there were consistently empty seats each Sunday…I’d estimate only half to 60% full each week. Why? Because there was nothing SAID. No substance. It was all about rituals, hymns, and a bunch of traditional nonsense that could have been repeated by robots. People need more than that. NPCC is growing by leaps and bounds…wild growth! Why? Because it is about Christ and people…not rituals and reciting creeds.
I was a member at North Point Community Church (with Andy Stanley) for over a year. I left because many things about the church are just plain unbiblical:
1. They do NOT require small group leaders to know anything about the Bible. I was in a meeting at the church where small groups were being formed and they specifically said that they needed “facilitators” for small groups. When hardly anyone volunteered, they said that you just need to facilitate a group, and that you don’t need to know anything about the Bible. I asked them about this to make sure I heard correctly, and they again said that you don’t have to know anything about the Bible. The reason is that you are not a “leader”; you are a “facilitator”. “Facilitator” is a politically correct term for leader. If you were in the small group and you had questions, who would you look to for answers? The leader, right? Well, having facilitators instead of leaders is a convenient way of allowing teachers who don’t know anything about the Bible. Compare this practice to Acts 6:1-6. If the disciples had to be “men full of the Spirit and full of wisdom” just to hand out food to widows, how much more should a small group leader be full of the Spirit and full of wisdom? Some of the groups watched Tony Robbins videos, which are new age to say the least, but since nobody knew anything about the Bible, how would they know that this was spiritually damaging? My personal group degenerated into feel-good talk and not discipleship.
2. They play secular songs in the worship service. Not always, but they will play songs written by non-Christians and without the intent of glorifying God. They’ll say that if you think about the song, it could be used as a worship song. But, the Bible is clear that if you do not belong to God, you belong to the devil, and the devil is not going to write songs that are glorifying to God.
3. There is no cross in the building. This is not such a big deal – you don’t need a cross in a church to be a real church. But when I asked why there was no cross, I was told that they didn’t want to make anyone uncomfortable or to offend anyone. Compare that to Gal 6:14 “May I never boast, except in the cross of Christ.”
4. They use some scripture in the sermons, but it is used to support the points of the speaker. The type of message given is almost always “feel-good”, pop-psychology, or stories, and rarely true Bible preaching. It is a cheap-grace message which preaches the grace of God without first preaching repentence, and why we need repentence. You can’t experience God’s grace without repentence. It is very rare that you will hear a sermon about Jesus’ most quoted teaching, which is found in every gospel, and in 2 gospels twice: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” If this is Jesus’ most common type of teaching, why is it not taught? But you will hear John 3:16 a lot. There’s nothing wrong with that, but they need to preach repentence first. See http://www.wayofthemaster.com
The reason the church is growing so fast is that they preach a watered-down version of the gospel.
I understand that many of you came from boring, dead churches. When you go to NPCC is seems so alive – it must be biblical and right! Please don’t make the mistake of calling this a church that preaches the entire gospel just because it is exiting and lively, and has good words to help you with your marriage, work, or relationships. There are some churches that are lively AND preach both sides of the gospel. I encourage you to visit http://www.wayofthemaster.com to learn more about this.
Mormons proclaim Christ too. Just because someone proclaims Christ doesn’t make them biblically accurate. I’m not saying NPCC is a cult! But they preach only one side of the gospel.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, (4) and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
I completely agree with you Clay!
I left NPM for the same reasons…
1. Small Group Facillitators- only have to fill out an application and do short interview. NPM also considers facillitators the pastors of the group. Although they are there to facilitate if you have questions or problems with fellow members they are supposed to pastor you in that sense. I’ve heard of several incidents where the small group leaders lead the group in unbiblical truths. I know of many leaders who party and drink on weekends with their groups, they don’t see anything wrong with it. I’m not saying they are all like that but when there aren’t many requirements to being a “pastor” something is bound to happen. This is true of children’s small group leaders as well.
2. Music- I have heard in the children’s minitries where secular music will be played for the kids while they play and before service. I’ve heard Beyonce, Kanye West and beats to rap songs played. I don’t agree with secular music played in the main auditorium either but the children’s music just blew me away.
3. NPM churches are for the unchurched but I do no t believe you need to conform to the unchurched to reach them. Jesus visited the unchurched but he did not conform to them.
4. I think Andy is a good man and is trying to please God in his ministry but I don’t think He’s aware of what is going on int the church and I also agree that the sermons are watered down and are used as apologetics for the unchurched and how the bible is a good handbook for a good life rather than also showing His commands and the hard things to swallow that are part of God’s majesty and part of the whole Gospel
Yes, I can see the point of Clay…but I don’t necessarily agree with it all. The watered down environment, well, yes. It’s true. It’s really not a church, in the true sense. It’s more like a spiritually inspired gathering. There’s way too many people that show up because it’s the trendy place to be…so they can say they attend, but have no accountability to do anything other than “gather”. There’s a big difference in gathering in the name of Christ and actually living in the name of Christ. Yet, it’s really not for me to judge…anymore than I have a right to judge that soccer mom in the SUV with a Jesus fish on the bumper who just cut me off on the way to the sermon. The church is just too big. It’s too easy to be anonymous and just show up. I’ve been going there for several months now, and I would say that in most cases, the plastic offering buckets that are passed are EMPTY. It makes me sad to see the lady sitting there in cut offs and flip flops drinking her venti Starbucks coffee, and then passing the bucket right across her lap without a second thought. Then again ,I wonder how in the world they are funding that place. It sure ain’t from tithing…
Andy Stanley is a great pastor with an incredible gift for teaching, but I fear it’s just not reaching the people who are attending because there’s just not enough Jesus in the message.
The reason NPCC grew so fast is because of small groups, and leadership multiplication. The small groups provide more of a New Testament community than most churches that are 100, 200, 300, 400, etc have. Even though they fellowship together because they all know each other (I’m from one), they don’t walk through life together, which is what real community is all about.
I’ve listened to over 100 NPCC sermons, and I’ve never thought the gospel was watered-down. Actually, of the roughly 100 different preachers from different churches I’ve heard, Andy provides MORE Biblical truth AND application than anyone of the others. I think some people confuse the amount of scripture read out loud with the amount of Biblical truth understood and applied to the learner’s lives.
What side of the gospel do you think NPCC leaves out?
“but I fear it’s just not reaching the people who are attending because there’s just not enough Jesus in the message.” –what does that mean?
I’m writing to aplogize for the size of North Point Community Church. When six of us gathered to think through the idea of beginning a church we had no idea that it would become so large. For this growth I am truely sorry. I realize that the size is intimidating.
I have read the comments on this site and have decided to make some changes. To begin with I am going to spend time with each and every parisioner so that they can get to know me personally. Like many of you, I wouldn’t want to attend a church where I could not connect personally with the pastor. I’ve shared this with my wife and three kids. They are in complete agreement. So beginning next Sunday I will be at the back door to shake hands.
Secondly, I am going to suggest to our elders that we sell our three campuses, consolidate, and move the church into a much smaller building. Smaller space will mean smaller crowds. And aparently large crowds are unbiblical. I agree, the church should be no larger than 40 to 50 people. Most of whom are believers.
Regarding my shallow, simplistic preaching…for this I am truley sorry. I am doing the best I can. I know deeper is better. I’m just not deep. I’m not really sure what to do about that.
These changes will take some time. Please be patient. If you have any helpful suggestions as to how I can transition North Point Community Church into a church made up of a handful of believers who enjoy deep preaching please let me know.
On a positive note, the 8,000 adults who meet in groups of 8 to 12 in homes throughout our community can continue to meet in spite of the fact that they will no longer be able to worship together.
Thank you for your valuable insights. And please accept my apology.
Andy Stanley
Pastor, North Point Community Church
Wow.
I have written a post that addresses some of these issues within modern/emerging churches. There might be some further room for thought on this subject (from all angles).
If that really was Andy, I’d like to share some things with you. I am a fellow preacher and work very close to your church.
Regards,
Clay
It really was Andy. Let ‘er rip.
I was an intern at NPCC under the leadership of Andy Stanley. It was an incredible opportunity and I am extremely thankful for the vision the church has for apprenticing those who desire to be ministers. I was a BIG skeptic of NPCC. I too thought they must be watering down the gospel in order for thousands to be drawn in like they are. I was skeptical of a pastor with whom no parishioners can make an appointment. While a huge church, with high production that consists mainly of attractive, wealthy, white people does not sit well with me in some ways I can attest to the faithfulness of the leadership at NPCC. I was impressed with their willingness to allow twenty year old interns to question everything they do and their motives behind it. They not only allowed it but welcomed it, encouraged it and responded humbly to the challenges I presented. I personally pointed out things that I thought were inconsistent in their mission and practice to Andy Stanley and he had a humble, articulate, well thought out response. He thanked me for raising some hard issues and never attempted to avoid the hard questions. I found this to be true of most of the staff I encountered. They offer a rare example of church leaders who are not threatened, not egotistical, not prideful. While you and I may disagree with some of their methods, I can attest to the fact that they are faithful, God-seeking men and women. I expected the gospel to be watered down each Sunday and found insted that Andy preaches straight from scripture; he does not simply find scripture to back his topics. He is a good and humble man who has found himself in a position of great leadership, and I feel is handling it with integrity. Attend NPCC on a baptism Sunday and listen to story after story of how God has radically changed lives in that place. You can not deny the personal stories of life change that occur there. Is it how I would do church or where I would prefer to go all the time? Probably not. But I do believe it is a gospel preaching, Christ seeking, church led by faithful men and women.
If it really is Andy, email me your phone number.
As for the readers of this post, I would kindly like to share part of my testimony with you. It is related to these postings:
I grew up in a Christian church and went to a Christian high school. I knew the Bible, had prayed the “sinner‚Äôs prayer”, and was baptized. BUT, my life after I prayed the “sinner’s prayer” was no different after than from before I prayed it. I still went out and got drunk, used bad language, had sex before marriage, watched TV shows that were extremely ungodly. I didn’t have a desire to read the Bible, attend church, or bear any spiritual fruit. My life was still bearing fruits of the flesh in abundance and I had no desire to live in a way that honored Christ.
I had not been born again. I was not a new creation. 2nd Cor 5:17 says (roughly) when we are born again, we are a NEW creature and that our old self and its nature have passed away, and we are made new. Likewise, when we are born again we die to our old nature and become alive in Christ. This is not my opinion – this is God’s Word.
What’s worse is that I thought I was saved because I had prayed the sinner’s prayer and I said that Jesus was God’s Son. Matthew 7:21-23 are the scariest verses in the Bible:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ (23) Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Did everyone see that? On judgment day, there are going to be many who thought they were saved, but they really weren’t! Many! Those people even knew about Jesus, because they said that they had lived for Him. The Bible says that only a few are saved – not many:
Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, (24) “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.‚Äù
This is the message that is not getting out – not just at this church, but in most churches. Many who think they are saved are not. Again, this is not my opinion; it is straight from the Bible. Look at all of the parables of true converts and false converts for even more proof: The Wheat and the Tares, the Foolish and Wise Virgins, the Foolish Servant, etc.
What about you, reader? Are you born again? We have been taught to not doubt our salvation. The Bible says the exact opposite:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?
Reader, does your life reflect the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22ff) or of the flesh (Gal 5:19ff)? Of course, we are not perfect and will sin, but which one of these categories do you generally fall into? The Bible says that we will “know them by their fruits”, and John 15:8 says that if you really are a Christian, you will bear fruit and it will be evident: “By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.” If we love Jesus, we will obey Him (John 14:21).
Reader, please read James chapter 2 to see what true faith is, as opposed to false faith.
If you’ve found that you’re not sure you’re saved, please stop right now and repent of your sins. This means stop doing what the Bible says is wrong (sin; basically living for your own desires) and turn and put your faith in Jesus for your salvation. For more information, explained better than I can, please see wayofthemaster.com.
Thanks for your patience in reading this!
This kind of understanding of what it means to be saved is exactly the kind against which Paul was waging epistolary war! Salvation is a gift, one that cannot be earned by any amount of doing good (i.e. generating spiritual fruit); rather, the generation of spiritual fruit results from the knowledge of grace! We will do good only once we have realized that salvation cannot be earned and has already been accomplished by God who alone can save us. Thus, the starting point for salvation is grace, whereas maturation in faith is gained by working through the Holy Spirit and bearing “spiritual fruit,” but you have the cart before the horse, so to speak.
And besides, how in the hell was that a letter to Andy?….
As for the rest of my testimony:
When I was 24 I was waiting one day for night to come so I could go out to the bars with my friends. I was very happy getting drunk and trying to hook up. I didn’t want God, nor was I looking for Him. I was sitting there and I saw a Bible laying on the table next to me. Out of boredom, I picked it up and it opened to Romans (I know now that this was God’s plan and not coincidence). As I read, I became aware of my sinful nature – I had no desire to live for Christ and I lived for women, beer, and me, me, me. As I kept reading, God showed me through His Word that I was going to hell because of my sin, even though I thought I was a good person. I began to cry because I knew it was true and that I actually deserved hell. When I got to Romans 3, it reveals how a new righteousness from God is made available through faith in Christ. That’s when I repented of my own ways and asked Jesus to lead my life any way He wanted to. I asked Him to come into me and make me new – and He did! Instantly I had no desire to hook up, get drunk, or any of those things. I also had intense desires to read God’s Word and to tell others what Jesus had done for me and what He could do for them.
When my friends came over that night they were shocked, to say the least. Almost 10 years later they still don’t know what happened to the old me (even thought I told them). God gave me a new nature. I’ve seen it in many other people’s lives – when they are born again they are literally made new, just like the Bible says. I’ve seen alcoholics go completely sober in one night. I’ve seen men who swear and beat the women in their lives become humble and gentle. But this happened ONLY after they came to a point where God showed them that they were sinners headed for hell, and they repented in godly sorrow over their lostness. That is the point at which you can receive the grace of God through Jesus and be born again. Jesus was literally raised from the grave and will come into you and you will become a new creation.
We’ve all seen people who get saved, get baptized, and then a few weeks, months, or years later they are back to their old ways. There is no fruit of the Spirit in them. They have no victory over sin and lead sinful lives. This is explained in the parable of the 4 soils (parable of the Sower). If you are really born again, you will endure to the end. But if you’re not really saved, you will not endure to the end. If people come to Christ because they want a better life – health, wealth, happiness, then they are not coming to Christ on biblical terms. Their desires are self-centered. The only biblically legitimate way to come to Christ is through the cross – dying to self by admitting and confessing our sins to God and dying to our will daily and letting Christ live through us daily (Luke 9:23-25).
Thanks for listening, and may God bless you.
Of course salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned. It is by grace alone. What I am talking about is after you are saved – after. If you are saved, the fruit of the spirit will come out naturally, without our effort (John 15). It’s God who causes the fruit, not me. What I’m saying is summed up in John 15:8, and this is after you are saved freely by grace.
“I‚Äôve seen men who swear and beat the women in their lives become humble and gentle. But this happened ONLY after they came to a point where God showed them that they were sinners headed for hell, and they repented in godly sorrow over their lostness.”
_________________________
I’ve seen men like that change, too, but it wasn’t because they prayed a sinner’s prayer. They just hit rock-bottom and realized the only way out was up. Does that mean that salvation can be found outside of the Gospel?
I don’t think so, because I don’t locate “salvation” in a “moment” as you seem to do. “Salvation” isn’t a matter of one moment in time when we human beings make some kind of a life-commitment to be a better person. “Salvation” has to do with spirit, soul, and eternity — indeed, the culmination of time, the fullness of time, even. This very phrase is used by Paul to refer to that moment when God saved us all! This isn’t about me accomplishing my salvation in the brief period of time that I walk the earth — to think so will end in humiliation, desperation, frustration, and existential failure! What this life is about is my preaching a Gospel of grace so that people can be led into newness of life led by the Spirit. That’s something that will always be around in stark contrast to the works-based individualistic salvation you’re preaching.
How are you getting works-based out of what I said?
As for people who hit rock bottom and change, sure it happens. But I’m talking about salvation and the newness of life that comes as a part of it, not a humanistic self-centered attempt to change oneself, although people can and have done that, but are still lost.
I’m impressed that Andy has enough time to read and post to blogs…that’s pretty cool. His point is well taken, even though sarcasm isn’t really the best way to get a point across, especially from somebody who has a natural talent for communication. Nothing said on this blog, from what I can see, was a personal attack against Mr. Stanley. Nor was it really anti-NP. It was just people sharing their opinions…some positive, some not so positive. People tend to be more, if not exaggeratingly, honest in blogs, and since this topic is such a personal and passionate one for most people, I can see how it could easily get a little out of hand. These were just people expressing their free speech rights and throwing out comments and perspectives, nothing more. There’s no conspiracy to shut down NPCC and little blogs like this are certainly not hurting attendance. Just let us rant, and if you do feel the need to comment Mr. Stanley, set us straight with facts, compassion and sensitivity, as one would expect from someone in your position. We can take it, and might even be better off.
Point well taken, Eric. I don’t take observations like those posted here personally. Seriously, but not personally. That’s why I felt the freedom to respond with a bit of sarcasm. But isn’t it a bit silly to be critical of a big church for being big? I know it is overwhelming for a first timer. I know it feels a bit like a sporting event out in the parking lot. I know it feels like it would be impossible to connect at a personal level. You can’t imagine the energy we expend addressing those issues. My vision is to connect 100,000 people in small groups. That’s where life change happens. Christianity is at its core, relational. I love the local church. I want North Point, Buckhead Chrurch and Browns Bridge Community Church to be the best they can be. So I’m constanly reading, listening, and looking around. By the way, Adam, great site.
Unbelievable. The fact that “Believers” will criticize a church for the ability it has to reach (bring in people) and impact (allow God’s word to change their hearts through worship, mission and Biblical truth) individuals is beyond me.
So sad.
I have been apart of dying churches before where the theology was abundant but the mission was not. The mission and passion of these churches is inspiring. The fact that they leave behind the Sanhedrin is a good thing.
Keep chasing after the steps of the one who was scarred and His people and leave the critics to themselves.
Love God, love others and help New Orleans.
In His grip,
Greg
Andy, it’s “truly” without an “e”.
Andy…THANK YOU for being humble enough to admit that even though the church is very successful, there are still issues and challenges that need addressing. Somehow seeing that posting made me feel much better about NCPP. Communication…a wonderful thing :-)
Interesting, very interesting. Life in Christ is about the relationships, as Andy said in a previous post.
And here is Andy in the blog world having a blog relationship with someone, it is all about the relationship(s).
And doesn’t Andy’s involvement in this contradict the very thing this blog denounces, Andy’s, or any megachurches, ability to be personal and effective in a large environment, not unlike the internet itself.
If it is about the relationships we have, and it is, then the fact that a group is able to create an invironment that leads to sharing the gospel and that leads to smaller group gatherings for more intimacy then why are we critizing it? Big, little, medium, just be effective.
Acts 2:42-47 Peter tells us;
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Do you DEVOTE yourselves to the teaching of Jesus, to FELLOWSHIP with other Christians, to EAT with other Christians, and to SHARE their burdens? Big, little or medium church do YOU do this?
I have been apart of the corporate church world and the house church world. I have truly (with no e) learned to LIVE my life daily, moment by moment, for Jesus. To respond when I hear that Still Small Voice prompt me. I regularly SHARE my life with other believers over dinner, study and life experiences, and yes we do the same with non-believers. IT IS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS we have with people.
Acts 2:38-41 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off‚Äîfor all whom the Lord our God will call.”
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Was not the 1st church a mega-church, I mean 3,000 people at one time and more were added to their number daily???????????? Must have done small group settings to keep it personal as the previous scripture told…
Andy, thank you for being obedient to Christ and following the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
just my thoughts, peace!
I couldn’t have said it better. Also, remember churches don’t just start out with 1000′s. They grow! As Lynda said a growing church is biblical. Let’s not start limiting the word “community” to just ourselves as Christ followers, but a passionate yearning to reach the community too. I‚Äôm part of a church that has exploded and it is impossible to believe it isn‚Äôt a God thing. You can listen to Perry Noble speak about our growing church, NewSpring, in our current series that focuses on our foundation here… http://www.newspring.cc/community/church.asp?pageid=14. The title is “Through the Roof” in the Foundations series. It‚Äôs amazing to see people of all ages in Anderson, SC being moved for God in an unreal way, and it‚Äôs not slowing down.
“So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them.” Mark 2:2
Wow! First, Adam thanks for sharing your thoughts and thank you for being honest about it. Also thanks for not “judging” Andy or NPCC and for keeping your point ‘personal’ to you. As for the rest, would one person PLEASE tell me where GOD is upset at Mega-Churches? A Bible reference or two would be great. Can someone explain why Jesus had 4,000 people fed on one occasion and 5,000 fed on another occasion? That too seems a bit Mega. Now let’s take it another way; what’s wrong with 8,000 – 30,000 people getting together in one or two locations in order to get fed spiritually the Word of God? Did Jesus not say that HE was the bread of life? So then the issue isn’t about being big or small, touchable or untouchable, in concert style or in traditional worship style… it’s about getting fed! Jesus cared about feeding those people regardless of the attendence – notice though the Apostles solution was to just send them home miles away. But Jesus said no.. “Feed Them!” As for the CEO references, it’s a business model. I’m not going to lie and say it’s not. HOWEVER, where is it said Biblically that using a business model in order to manage large groups of people and their ever-changing needs is wrong? It sounds funny to me that chruches have HR departments yet, I see & understand the need for it. But, again I bet most everyone on this post works for some sort of corporation with a CEO that you’ve never met one-on-one with. Why? the company is simply too big for that. So, why not go get a job at a smaller company where you can? You don’t because it’s not about the CEO…it’s about you getting a decent paycheck and taking care of your family. Well, ‘Church’ is not about the pastor… it’s about you getting to know God and the Lord Jesus Christ and through THEM taking care of your family which incidently is also a part of God’s family. Let’s remember to love one another (like right now) EVEN if we don’t agree. And let’s remember that Jesus can’t be in Church unless He’s in you first!
May I respond to Clay’s post, then to Andy’s?
First, Clay wrote:
“If you’ve found that you’re not sure you’re saved, please stop right now and repent of your sins. This means stop doing what the Bible says is wrong (sin; basically living for your own desires) and turn and put your faith in Jesus for your salvation.”
Clay, I CAN’T stop doing what the Bible says is wrong. I’m like Paul, the good that I want to do, I don’t do. And the crap that I don’t want to do is the very stuff I keep doing?
Thank God for His son, whose blood sacrifice didn’t COVER my sin, it removed my sin. When I believed, I became born into God’s family.
I STILL sin! I STILL don’t follow God. But will HE be faitful to redeem me, as He promised?
He has to because He sealed me with His down payment, the HS, and that happened way back when I first believed.
What about my fruit? Well, for years I didn’t produce nuthin. What if I had died in a car accident before I’d had a chance to start “producing”? Would you have assumed at my funeral that I was never a believer? Please say not!
Not looking to argue with you…just a point of view that has freed me, and many others in ways indescribeable.
To Andy, when I read your first post, I naively thought you were immediately gonna start doing everything you said. (Did you stand at the back door yesterday and shake hands with folks?)
I would have to agree that sarcasm doesn’t become someone with your namesake.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that there is a place for mega churches, and tiny churches, and missional churches, and house churches,and churches in bars, and churches in jail, and churches just about everywhere, looking like just about anything.
So, if God has called you, Brother Andy, to the mega church, then please, mega-rock on!
Trudi: But I think you’ve stumbled onto exactly the reason the megachurch movement makes so many pastors so uncomfortable. Those in the megachurch movement, with few exceptions, maintain that “tiny churches” which are not reaching out and not growing ARE NOT biblical, nor healthy. It’s not just someone growing their church to 20,000 that creates controversy — it’s that megachurch pastors are also saying that stagnant churches are not fulfilling the heart of the gospel; and that causes the real backlash. Of course, having thousands isn’t necessary to be healthy but being “external” and being committed to seeing unbelievers come to Christ is. And frankly, this makes a lot of Christians (read: mainliners) uncomfortable. With some mainline denominations losing 1 million people in the past 10 to 20 years, the megachurch movement isn’t just a phenomenon happening in their backyard, it’s a phenomenon that hits home because it clearly points out mainline faults and foibles. Did you know the average Presbyterian invites someone to church only once every 28 years? (Source: Barna Research Group.) So how do you save face for your dying church and denomination? Demonize people like Andy Stanley. Complain that he doesn’t preach the gospel, and avoid having to answer questions about your own unfaithfulness to the gospel.
Bu let’s face it, no matter how shallow Andy’s sermons may be, their supposed unfaithfulness pales in comparison to the unfaithfulness of those who stand by and watch their churches die out of concern for tradition that no longer speaks, the proper flow of liturgy, and the comfort of those already in the pew.
And despite the criticism that I’ll receive from my classmates who frequent this blog, a year at Princeton has only made this more evident to me.
The question I would want to ask Andy Stanley, if he should blog this way again, regards how he has structured his mega church with the satellite locations.
Question: The one thing that seems to differentiate the ‘satellite’ churches from traditional new ‘church plants’ is that you made the decision to be the preaching pastor for all the locations – how did you arrive at that decision and how is it more effective than each congregation having it’s own ‘live on location’ preaching pastor?
Great question. The short answer is, our goal is to raise up an army of effective communicators. I don’t think it is healthy, nor sustainable, to have so much riding on one communicator. This year I’ll preach 35 times. The balance of the preaching is shared by three other communicators including Louie Giglio.
Our strategy has been driven by a commitment to create empty seats at optimal times. Additional campuses and additional auditoriums have been our way of accomplishing that.
I could go on and on. Hope that helps. Thanks for asking.
I started attending Buckhead Community Church earlier this year w/ my husband. We spent one year looking for a church in the Atlanta area. We had attended NPCC w/ his sister’s family since they go there (as do many, many other ppl we know), but it is a little far from us and also felt huge.
But the Buckhead auditorium is smaller (even tho there’s 4 services) so we liked that. Everyone is very nice even tho you aren’t likely to make friends just meeting someone on Sunday morning…
And the teaching can be quite simple at times, but we have found to be mostly theologically correct, though not plumbing the depth of the passages in their entirety sometimes.. (we both have bible college training so we are looking at that more than some ppl)..
we appreciate the many ministries of Buckhead/NPCC, the impact that its attenders/members are having in their sphere of influence, the good spiritual learning environments for children/youth… the worship is ‘cutting edge’… you know David Crowder and the like, and everything is very well done. The people are genuine, love Christ, love to worship him, and love to serve others. The congregation meets each others needs thru their small groups. I have yet to attend a church, small or otherwise, where the pastor attended to each persons needs, whether spiritual, physical, emotional, financial… this is what the congregation does, with leadership over them from their pastor. This continues at NPCC & it’s satellite churches.
Also, the wealthy may attend, but they are not stingy w/ their money and the gifts are used to do many things in missions and in the community.
And, this summer, I have probably heard about 5-6 different teachers on Sunday morning which I really like.
If you prefer a small community of worshipers, that’s cool. But what will you do when that small community brings their friends and doubles in size, and they bring their friends and family members, and on and on, until it grows into a ‘mega’ church? that is how those churches become large. People reaching out to other people. Being Christ to them!
Sorry if this was kinda long.
Glad you were able to visit when you were in Atlanta. Sorry for the saved seats. Next time come to Buckhead campus. We don’t do that! But you do need to get there early to get a seat!!
Thanks for your answer Andy. One more thing I was thinking is that it would take a very special personality, someone really called of God and empowered by God, to handle the pressure of the leadership and ministry of a mega church and many subsequent satellite churches.
With power and fame comes temptation in many forms. Dynamic leaders need dynamic accountability teams in place to keep them grounded and focused. They also need dynamic prayer support.
I live in New York (and visited your church in Atlanta only once), but I will commit to holding you up in prayer as you seek to fulfill God’s call upon your life. May He be mightily glorified by your obedience my brother, and may you be kept pure before Him until that day. Peace.
Thank you for the prayers. Pray specifically that we will know how to show Christ’s love to the hundreds of people streaming into our city from the areas hardest hit by Katrina. This is a new challenge for our congregation. We want to be faithful with this stewardship of opportunity.
Yes…I will pray specifically! And sincerely. And often. I like to imagine all the good that God will bring from this disaster. How exciting that you can be part of His plan with a front row seat to watch Him work!
Zirschky, you’re right. Evangelization is next to nonexistant in Presby congregations. Difficulty is that the flip-side of folks invites people at the expense of mystery and doctrinal complexity. Evangelization for “megachurches” involves reducing salvation to a moment and the person of God to three or four sentences. My mom, a southern Baptist from Arkansas, just complained to me the other day about the lack of stringency in accepting people into the church — we need disciples, not fly-by-night converts (though we DO need converts; just not in the sense I’m using it here). Anyway, I think there is a balance to be struck, and the two camps that are subject to our suppositions fall on either end of a spectrum.
Peace,
– kp -
Kellen,
Are you trying to tell me that Presbyterian and other mainline churches are full of “disciples” and that’s why they just aren’t thriving? Is the PCUSA really so busy “making disciples” that they have no time to make converts. Please! Your argument defies logic. Disciples evangelize. It’s part of what they do. Period end. Further, what those in mainline churches often don’t understand is that their “doctrinal complexity” and “mystery” is often completely lost on the people in the pews.
Further, I think you’d be hard pressed to really find any megachurch that reduces conversion to just a moment, or God to “three or four sentences.” It might appear that way if you isolate sermons, mission statements, or take other vignette views of the ministry. But in my visits to place like Santa Cruz Bible, Graceland, Willow Creek, Saddleback, and others, I haven’t found this to be true when the ministry is taken as a whole.
At the same time, the mainline churches I’ve attended are full of people who “converted” at some point, and you can’t tell at all by the lives they lead. And they haven’t a clue about theology because church is just something they do because they’ve always gone to church. Much of the problem is that the communication styles being used in these churches are so out of date that theology and discipleship may be “communicated” upfront, but the message is never heard, absorbed or internalized by the people in the pews.
kp, when you write that your mom…complained just the other day about the lack of stringency in accepting people into the church…
well, I assume that your mom is an outstanding Christian and a good Southern Baptist who loves her church and our Lord,
but to me this seems like an attitude that seems to offend the very heart of the gospel (that Christian churches supposedly exist to support.)
“Are you trying to tell me that Presbyterian and other mainline churches are full of “disciples” and that’s why they just aren’t thriving?”
No, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth! ;)
_________________________
“Further, I think you’d be hard pressed to really find any megachurch that reduces conversion to just a moment, or God to “three or four sentences.”
Maybe so, but I grew up in a southern Baptist church, went to Sunday school every week for 18 years, and I’m here to tell you that evangelical theology is severely lacking in complexity, tension, and mystery. It’s an emaciated, ahistorical understanding of the Christian faith and practice that bothers me most, and that’s really what I felt growing up was the problem — and still is. That’s why I was agreeing with you (I think you read into my use of “disciples” because of its currency in liberal circles) that we need converts to a complex faith!
________________
“At the same time, the mainline churches I’ve attended are full of people who “converted” at some point, and you can’t tell at all by the lives they lead. And they haven’t a clue about theology because church is just something they do because they’ve always gone to church.”
These words could be written about practically any church in America. Plenty of evangelicals I know just go to church because that’s what they’ve always done, always been taught to believe.
_____________________
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to seem contentious with my comment. I just think there are a lot of problems with both mainline churches and evangelical “free church” churches. One system is overly concerned with the care of doctrine and tradition — the other with relevancy. Perhaps the two could learn from one another, if only those from each would listen….
Great discussion. Enjoyed reading every bit of it… especially the sarcasm of Andy!
Andy -
Just curious… is it (in your opinion) healthier for the Church (capital C) to have aspiring pastors to join a movement with momentum (i.e. Northpoint, Willow, Saddleback, etc) or to pioneer something new?
In other words, would you rather see what you’re doing get resourced and supported by more staff and people… or would you rather see newer churches spring up in your area with smaller congregations struggling to get the fly wheel going?
(Oh yeah… and you can’t say “both.”) :)
If it is indeed true that members cannot schedule appointments to visit Andy, I for one would be a little confused right now if I were a NPCC member. Andy has the time to seek out and refute a few mildly critical comments on a blog, but not enough time to schedule visits with at least a few of those who are supporting his ministry weekly? Although as an outsider I find his posting here very unexpected and interesting, it comes off a bit desperate and defensive. I do have to add that Andy’s sermon, I think it’s called “Matters of the Heart” is one of the best sermons I’ve heard.
I don’t know Andy or how he operates his church at all, but here is a possible scenario that I have seen in other large churches that I am just applying to Andy in a really loose way to make a point:
lets see maybe…andy’s executive assistants’ phone rings off the hook all day. The church office gets hundreds of email requests daily. She tries to accommodate the expectations of (ok…for the sake of this example, lets say one congregant).
This takes her maybe 10 minutes to do (best case scenario). The coveted appointment with Andy is on the calendar.
Then lets say an emergency comes up before the anticipated day/time, as is apt to happen in a church so large, and responsibilities so vast. Now there is a conflict on the calendar. The executive assistant has her meeting with Andy to discuss how to handle this, what to shift around (takes a couple minutes), then she contacts the congregant and finds an agreeable time to reschedule. Managing this change in Andy’s schedule costs the EA another 10 minutes or so on the phone with the congregant (after maybe playing phone tag) and another couple of minutes of updating the calendar.
Finally it is the day of the meeting. Thirty minutes has been scheduled, but once the meeting starts and now approaches the end, the congregant isn’t really mindful of the timetable set by the church office and just has ‘one more thing’ he/she needs to discuss with the pastor. Or lets say the 30 minutes is honored, but is woefully short to effectively manage the content of the meeting’s ‘agenda’.
Let’s say the reason the congregant called the meeting to begin with is the desire to see changes within the ministry (let’s say the concern is that ‘just anyone’ can lead a Bible study as a ‘facilitator”, or that the parking lot attendant had not been as friendly as he could’ve been, or that people were saving seats in worship deterring others from coming, or that his preaching was not deep enough, or that 722 has gotten outta hand, or there needs to be more concerts, or desires to see the startup of rootbeer float Sundays, or, or…).
So, now in order for the congregant to leave a ‘satisfied customer’, Andy must promise action of some sort. You know, he will look into it, talk to someone, involve the elders, propose something, pray about it.
Or he could take the time to discuss with the congregant all the reasons why things are done the way they are, or have evolved to be the way they are, or and can not be changed at this time, or doesn’t meet the vision of the church, etc. This dialogue can become lengthy and involved if the congregant has no background in church administration or no understanding of the basic premise of the ministry of NPCC. Or if he does, but just disagrees.
This is just a hurriedly drawn scenario of course, but mulitply something like this times 8000 or more. Each member with the ‘right’ to meet with Andy at their whim. He at their beck and call.
And imagine if their need to see Andy was not about ‘how’ the ministry is done, but they ‘need’ ministry because of a spiritual need or the need was for counseling. How can that be done with compassion and be effective in a one time, quick fix meeting?
Does he clear his calendar for repeat appointments to meet this need? Pass them off to someone else on staff? What if the congregant only wanted Andy to meet their need and no one else?
See how complicated this could get? How frustrated this can be for the pastor and the members alike?
Now, I imagine Andy surfing the web, late at night after putting in a full days work of ministry at NPCC or on the weekend (I am just making this up as I go along, obviously, but bear with me). He googles his church name and #5 on the google search engine is pomomusings. He clicks on it. Right away he can see that people are posting intelligent, provocative thoughts about his church. He is curious. He reads on. He hesitates to reply, but it doesn’t require an EA to schedule time on his calendar. It will take only a couple minutes – tops. He can post and then leave the ‘conversation’ at his convenience (just like each of us does, by the way). He can even do this a couple of times without it draining him or taking too much time away from other responsibilities or of his personal time.
I’m thinking someone who loves people so much to facilitate a mega church to meet their spiritual needs is a ‘people person’ – but who is just someone who has more time constraints than the rest of us, hey, but like us can find a few minutes here and there to reply to a blog. Especially one where seminary graduates (and others) are trying to figure out this mega church phenomenon and how it impacts the way we do church? Maybe what seems so obvious to him is lost on us and he tries to make his point sarcastically. Nothing wrong with that. Andy is maybe, just being Andy.
Isn’t that the beauty and convenience of blogging? I don’t have to invite each of you into my office to interact with you. I can do it in the morning in my pajamas (as I am right now), do it before that meeting in an hour, or while I am watching TV to catch up on the latest Katrina aftermath updates. I won’t have to refer anyone to anyone else. Or followup on anything.
But I get to make a contact with my brothers and sisters in Christ – and get to challenge someone’s thinking or offer prayer or request prayer. Or be encouraged. At the end of the day I think there is something very right about that.
Tony…you are right…it is both. We have six strategic partner churches that are separate 501c3 organizations that use our model. They are living and dying on their own ability to raise fund while reaching their community. Most of the leadership for these church plants came from our staff. That is absolutely thrilling to me. We help ‘em get organized. Coach ‘em. And help raise some start up money.
At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, we are on a constant mision to create empty seats in our own worship environments.
Zach…You may find this hard to believe…but very few church members ever call me and want to meet. Honestly. The majority of the calls I get for meetings are from people outside our local church. And I rarely ever meet with any of those folks.
wow this comment thread has gone on for a long time. The funny thing is, I have read almost all of it before. Just change the church name and change the authors. Watered down gospel… mega church vs. small church.
I like the original post. Adam was able to say… Hey NP just isn’t for me. That’s cool. That’s why not every church in the world isn’t like NP. And I really appreciate that most everyone here has not turned this into a finger pointing contest and name calling.
I think different styles reach different people. Big churches, medium churches, and even small churches. But you see it isn’t the type of church that makes the difference in the persons life. Its God who does that. Different people communicate and relate in different ways. I believe God uses all the different types of churches to do this. It’s the truth in his word that will make the real difference. The music, the preaching style, the building… that stuff may bring people to the place. But it’s God who speaks to them once they show up. So shouldn‚Äôt you do all you can do to get as many people as possible to at least show up? Then allow God to do his thing?
I grew up in a large church – 2000+ members – and, looking back, never gave much thought to the size. My parents had friends there, my sisters and I had friends there, and I was blessed by the wealth of experiences I was offered, some of them possible because of the size of the church.
So as much as it seems out-of-character to me, I really have to say that the concept of a megachurch doesn’t bother me from a numbers point of view.
There MUST be perspective and balance in maintaining a large congregation, however. When my family left that church, many others did as well. A close family friend of ours wrote a letter to the pastor, concerned that there were more Sunday school/Wednesday night classes offered for seekers than for those who had been Christians for years and wanted to pursue deeper topics. Concerned that the church was more focused on bringing people into the church than keeping them there.
And she was right. She recieved a letter back from the pastor who informed her that the church had decided to focus its mission more on new members than on old ones. That was her impetus to leave and to find a new church where members were as welcome as visitors.
Perspective and balance. If a church is a money-making venture, if it is in competition with other churches to be the biggest and the best, if a church focuses on giving people the Gospel in small digestable amounts but doesn’t continue to feed their members, then there is something wrong.
The problem that megachurches must always grapple with is negotiating the tension between drawing in new members and feeding old ones. If it becomes all about the numbers, then there is a serious problem.
I know that someone will write back and say “but aren’t we supposed to bring as many people as possible to Christ, and isn’t that the main, if not only goal?”
I suppose. But I would hope that our churches could expect more of themselves than just churning out converts.
Interesting discussion…glad I found it. I live on the north side of Houston…so we have Fellowship of The Woodlands (Kerry Shook) in our backyard as well as Ed Young at 2nd Baptist and the then the mega of all mega churches….Lakewood Church and the Osteens.
I have very little experience with Mega churches having attended Fellowship of The Woodlands only one time….so that’s the extent of my sampling.
A couple of things surprised me there…1) that there were so many older people there (over 50, over 60) (given that the worship band rocked out!) 2) & that there was a continued emphasis on drawing more people in and getting them to serve in some capacity.
I often wonder what the purpose is in growing a church so large? Why not grow to some arbitrary number and then plant another church in a nearby neighborhood? Why is a church of 5,000 or 10,000 advantageous over one of 250 to 500?
I am involved in a church plant in the area. My family and I have been involved since early 2004 either in a Sunday evening bible study or, since last summer, holding church sunday mornings at our local community center. We move in on Sunday mornings and out after the service. We usually put out about 50 chairs and get anywhere from 20-50 people including kids…there….we haven’t grown much over the last year. We wonder why. We wonder if we place to much emphasis on growth and not enough caring about the people who do come. We do realize that ministry requires finances….and it requires believers to lend a hand and be involved in ministry. We want to be a beacon of light for the community by proclaiming the Word in Truth, Love and Grace.
nexenrod brings up one of my favorite subjects. What is the optimal size for a local church? When is a church big enough? When should a congregation launch a second church? We have been discussing that quesiton since the inception of North Point. I think we have discovered the anwer. Ok, an answer. And I would love to get some outside perspective. So, before I give you my answer, what do all the seminary students think?
This is not a trick question. I really do think we have stumbled upon a principle that can be applied in just about every church and church plant environment. But first… what do you think?
By the way, I love seminary students. I actually loved seminary.
as for the question about church size…i think it’s when you can effectively minister to all age groups that live in your community and when you have established a vibrant local and foreign missions team that are ministering to the felt needs as well as sharing Jesus Christ.
I can’t understand why anyone would drive over 10 minutes to go to a church. What would drive you to go outside your community to “do church”? Church is about community…it’s about where you live and the people that live where you live.
I’ve been reading this thread for a while and just had to jump in at Andy’s last question. It was: “What is the optimal size for a local church? When is a church big enough?”
I’ve been bouncing this question around for the last three years. I used to be involved in a sizeable church (2000+) and liked the resources it provided. However, it was a “Sunday school” model and small groups were just an add-on. Genuine community was hard to find.
Then, for the last three years during seminary, I attended a small neighborhood church of about 150. The community was great, but resources were tough and there was always a sense of “if we had more____, we could reach more people.”
One church felt too big, the other too small. So, being the mathematician I am, I concluded that the optimal church must be somewhere in the middle, say 800 people. That way, the organization had enough momentum and resources to be effective, but not so big that the logistics of multiple services and complex programming detracted from community. Interesting idea; a little too simplistic though.
Now, I’m on staff at a very large church. And amazingly enough we have both tremendous resources to do ministry, but the small group model we use is so intentional and strategic, that genuine community, discipleship, and life change is happening. In fact, at this point, assuming the primary leadership is capable and stays focused and our facilities remain logistically feasible, I don’t see what new barriers popluation growth alone would create that would prevent us from being effective. If and when we build new campuses, it’s only because our facilities here are ineffective at handling the number of people now coming, and it’s more advantageous to build new campuses in the areas from where people are driving than expand the “main” campus.
So, my conclusion is: it’s all based on leadership and logistic feasibility. Let’s be honest, some senior pastors are very godly and gifted, just not gifted at organizational leadership. For those senior pastors, it will be difficult to grow beyond a given number no matter what model they are using. Other senior pastors are very gifted at organizational leadership, and therefore, given the right model–a church that grows bigger by getting smaller–and the right logistical circumstances, numbers alone should never hinder growth. I guess I’m saying that the optimal church size is dependent on facility feasibility and good leadership. When it becomes logistically unfeasible or when the leadership has bumped up against their abilities, it’s time to plant.
Just my 2 cents. Would love to hear other opinions.
Well if you like formulas there is always the 80% rule:
People feel most comfortable in a space when 20% of the seats are empty.
When 80% of the seats are taken, it is time to expand.
or
But you could take a different approach. What about serious reliance upon the Spirit to reveal when it is time to expand? Doesn’t God still speak that way? Might the time to expand be different for each church and congregation dependant upon God’s will and plan for them? If the leadership is prayfully, in faith, seeking God to show them how to grow the church, might His Spirit actively interact to reveal the right time, place, method – specific for them as He provides the increase?
Andy -
Per your question, I believe the best time to plant is when it fits the purpose of your church to do so. This requires forethought and planning, as well as a recognition of what will need to be in place to head things up. Ideally, you will have a leader to head this up or else it’s not worth doing. When the core team is in place, you let the group overflow out the door.
A question on my end…
Now that you’ve been a “successful” lead pastor, would you ever consider being a staff member again (i.e. let’s say Hybels calls…)?
Okay, as a seminarian I’ll chime in on the “optimal size” question: Among other things I think optimal size depends on at least two factors including community type/size and God-directed vision. Where I used to minister, in Twin Falls, Idaho, a town of around 40,000 in southern Idaho, the possibility of a 20,000 person megachurch was a pretty ridiculous idea. Even the population of the surrounding area was far less than 100,000. But secondly, in the rugged independence of the Idaho mindset, bigger was usually seen as scary, and so chuches battled the same problem as every other business or organization that became too large: people would usually run in the other direction. It was a weird culture, but I’m sure one that exists elsewhere. I was in a church with an average attendance of 600, and there were about 1,000 people in town who “identified” themselves with our church. Basically, one out of every 40 people I encountered around town knew me as a pastor at the Church of the Nazarene. As a pastor, I felt like I was living in a fish bowl most of the time! Should we have been a church of 10,000? I don’t believe so. The church is still growing, and a year after I left is hovering around 800 people per Sunday. But they’re in the process of spinning off another church. Why? First, because of the local cultural aversion to “really big stuff” we figured that maintaining a church of no more than 1,000 would create an environment in which the average person in Twin Falls would be comfortable. But they also realized they had reached a significant number of people in their target demographic while other demographic subsets went unreached. Twin Falls Nazarene has a great impact on the affairs and lifestyle of Twin Falls, Idaho, but there was a whole class of people who just weren’t ministered to by the style of the church. So, they went to the local speedway and started a “church” out of the folks who consider NASCAR their religion. How about that for an unreached demographic?
So, I’d say community size/type is an issue in determining the appropriate size for a church before spinning another church off.
And we shouldn’t forget that God-instilled vision is indispensible. Unless the Lord builds the house….
First, Northpoint rocks! Everything they do is top-notch. And they do it all, put in all that effort, to reach people. I work at Calvary Fellowship and we attended DRIVE a few weeks back and it was incredible (a leadership conference by Northpoint). It was incredible. What’s even more incredible is the amount of email have recieved (after posting about it on my site) from the leadsership there. They have been asking me for any suggestions I might have to improve. ME! The effort they also put into learning, growing, and changing amazes me. They are big for a reason. They do whatever they can to reach people more effectively, and God has blessed that. I wish I was more open to outside input like them. It is a culture that has to start from the top down. I must admit I am an Andy-ite. I’ve read every book and listen to him every week. I want to learn from people who are actually doing ministry, and doing it well.
As a local church pastor and seminarian (x2 – Rockbridge and NOBTS), I think Andy’s question is a great one. We’ve gone from 35 in worship to 110, but it’s been a real struggle. Now that we are past the 80% full mark in our worship space, we’re moving to the fellowship hall to add another 100 seats. But that’s it. And here on the Gulf coast, where land is very pricey, I don’t know that we can ever afford to buy another place. So for us “what size?” is real.
Viability to me is reached at 300, because now you have multiple staff and resouces to help more of your folks move into ministry. We have two other staff guys who are in seminary that work for free, or we’d be far less effective. Our plan is to spin off a satellite into an area unreached by a modern church once we reach 300. Then again. Then again.
Each quarter though, we’ll come together for communal worship in rented space, and we’ll comingle small groups when possible to keep the spirit and passion we’ve found together. We’ll do Acts 1:8 together – and hopefully multiply our impact here and throughout the other areas.
Would I like to be sitting in a church of 8,000? Sure if I can write letters to critics like Andy did above and still be full of grace. :) But we have mega-churches here and are still way underreaching missing people. So small here, is the new “big” thing.
Grace!
David Wilson
I’m pretty slow on these concepts, but here’s my 2 cents. (I’m canadian so it’s even worth less…) I am a seminary student so that’s all I can afford.
Are we talking about the size of the church or the size of a worship/preaching gathering?
I’d like to see the body of Christ be around the 5-6 billion mark.
Corporate worship/”preaching”? (telling the truth about life) No relationship needed – make it as big as you can “build”. Let the preachers preach!
Teaching time? (teaching the truth for life) – probably 70 people tops. A good small “country community church” size. There needs to be a minimum relationship of student/teacher. Let the teachers teach!
Tranformational stuff? (showing the truth through life) 3-12 people. There needs to be a minimum relationship- like coach/player. (everyone coaches someone- whether they like it or not)
Real deep life change? (sharing the truth in life) 1-2 people. There needs to be accountability relationship – almost like older siblings..
All that garbage to say this: What’s the big deal? I really don’t care if 30000 people come to hear me teach. The more the merrier. I can’t have a relationship with everyone anyways. What does the “size” of my church have to do with anything? If there aren’t enough “leaders” in 10000 to make people “feel” community, there probably isn’t enough in 30 people hanging out in a living room either…
I think I’ll just keep trying to teach as many people as I can that relationships and community are where it’s at.
Hey I just joined the Andy Stanley Fan Club… get your Buttons and T-Shirts on my site…
…And Petra Means Rock! lol
Let me fist say that I give Andy a ton of credit for even enagaging in this (imho absurd) conversation.
The idea that a guy can go to one service at a church–just one, and not participate in any other ministries… no serving… no small groups…nothing else–and then have the nerve to level the kind of critique that he does, is absurd.
I am a pastor of an emergent church plant in Storrs CT (New Egland). We are small but I hope God blesses what we are doing and we can include more and more people in our community–I think it is a really good thing to be involved at St. Paul’s Collegiate Church and want as many people as possible to get the same experience I get…
I am reminded of what he scripture teaches about mega-churches:
It seems pretty obvious to me that places like NPCC, Willow, Mosaic, Mars Hill, etc, have been “faithful with little” and so have been entrusted with much.
Andy poses some really good question… here is a quick attempt at answering them:
1. What is the optimal size for a local church?
As big as God allows… where people are meeting the Lord, growing in their faith, discovering and using their spiritual gifts for ministry both in and outside the church, investing in a group of people and being invested in by a group of people.
I think good structure and the gifts or administration and leadership allow even large churches to do this. I have seen many small churches that do not.
The idea that the Lead Pastor is the one who must be the “hands-on” shephered for every person in the church is absurd and would mean that churches shoudl never be larger than a small group. On the other hand, a Lead Pastor who can develop teams of shephereds and leaders who pastor people through small groups etc — this is awesome when it works. It is also shows a humbleness by the Lead Pastor–I always wonder about small church pastors who think they are the only ones who can really connect, counsel, shepherd, disciples, etc the people in their church. This should not be worn as a badge of honor but of shame at failing to “train and equip the saints”.
2. When is a church big enough?
Either when (a) all lost people within the geographic area have been reached; or (b) when God calls the church to something different. In other words, when the mission is completed or God changes the mission.
3. When should a congregation launch a second church?
Most obviously, when (and only when) God calls. More specifically, when (and only when)the church believes that it can be more effective at accomplishing the mission that God has given it than if the stay as one body.
I just came across this conversation. Interesting. I also appreciate Andy’s willingness to engage in this conversation.
First, I visited NPCC a few years ago, and thoroughly enjoyed it. Unfortunately we were there on one of the 17 weekends that Andy doesn’t speak there. :-)
A couple quick observations …
+ I (like others) think we need to be more respectful of others in in the body of Christ. Sure, there’s a place for healthy critique, but it should be just that — healthy.
+ It strikes me as odd to criticize Andy for not engaging people and then when he engages us here, he is criticized for how he goes about it (i.e. sarcasm), which I thought was well-communicated, personally. But some people will criticize anything, it seems.
I, like others, dislike the discussions about small church vs. big church, and even worse, the anti-megachurch rants. It’s the response to God’s call and mission that matters.
The question for me is, “do you have good fruit?” If you’re bearing good fruit for the kingdom, then I will gladly cheer you on (because we’re on the same team; even if our theology, ecclesiology, etc. isn’t identical)!
Regarding size, I think we need all sizes to reach different people. Some people will be drawn to small churches, others to large churches, and all sizes in between.
Honestly, I can’t imagine any size being too big. If God continues to bless and the church continues to make disciples and form genuine community, and exist for the good of the world, then how big is too big?
That said, I look forward to Andy’s take on the question.
In response to Randy’s post: AMEN!
Necessity Post: Just keeping this thread alive until we get Andy’s answer to the “optimal size” question… if we don’t comment often this thread disappears into the oblivion of Adam’s archive and off the “recent comments” list… never to be seen again….
There has been alot of discussion regarding the externals of church growth and leadership, but the training that I have received and the experiences that I have had, lead me to believe that emphasis needs to be placed first and foremost on the internals of church growth. Meaning the critical, essential aspect of the health and vitality of the church, which begins with the health of the personal lives of the lead pastor and leadership team (and in their shared leadership capacity). When the leadership becomes vibrant and healthy, only then will there be the healthy, growing church that God intends.
And we can’t discuss true church growth without bringing up the importance of prayer. When a truly (without the ‘e’) praying church (leadership and laity) seek in humility to touch the heart of God and hear the voice of God in fervent, meaningful, Biblical prayer – there comes a shift in focus and vision for the church.
The leadership and members together sense the work and movement that the Spirit of God intends for the church and they (together) seek to obey what He has shown them collectively. In this model the whole church ‘buys into the vision’. It is not a ‘top down’ leadership independent mentality – meaning the Pastor prays alone, gets the vision alone, casts the vision alone and oversees the vision without accountability, etc.
A healthier church exists when the Spirit is the leader and the church leaders and laity are interdependent upon each other and the empowering presence of God. Then comes God exalting worship and the outpouring of the Spirit to include the evidence of the fruits and of the Spirit and all the other aspects of a healthy, growing church will follow. Under these conditions community happens and thrives and the church grows.
Randy, nice one.
Andy, have you ever thought about blogging? Oh, and thanks for taking the time to hang with us here. It’s been invaluable.
Andy, do you think the ‘model’ that I just described of the whole church body praying together (laity with leadership) to discern God’s will and then acting in obedience to carry it out – is a practical model the church today?
I mean as the church gets bigger and becomes mega-church status is it more practical for a healthy leadership team to make all the visionary decisions for the church – including when to start church plants and when to add additional locations? Is that practicality in anyway a hindrance?
You mention that your church staff members are often the ones who lead the new church plants. If they are in that circle of prayer that hears God’s voice regarding church growth, I can understand their willingness to be obedient to that voice and be participants in this work of church planting.
How widely does that prayer circle go? How many are praying and actively seeking to be obedient to this call? That, I think would be key to the churches ability to start up more and more church locations and to do it effectively.
Keep it up, Andy! Love the books too!
Well I’m no seminary grad, but I’d love to jump in here. I’m really not sure when a church is too big. Plus it’s kinda intimidating trying to answer before A. Stanley.
Is a church too big when you can no longer successfully accomplish your mission? Let me clarify. If a church thrives on small groups but they are lacking in good, healthy small group leaders is that church too big? Or is that simply an area for improving discipleship? I’m not so sure about that one.
What about this. What if your church is growing so rapidly that you have to consistently turn away unchurched people. Is that church too big? Do they need another location? Or do you need to tell the believers “Your not going to hell, so sit on the floor, pitch a tent in the hall, or something!”
So what the…no a answer Andy??
Notice that just like his messages, Andy will create a conflict or a tension, then at just the right time he will address it and we will all go AHHH…and pick our jaws off our laps.
funny how that is.
I just came across this post and have read many of the comments but not all so I apologize if I repeat anything that has already been said.
First, I am a member of Fellowship Church in Grapevine Texas and it is the 5th largest church in the country so I guess it is a “MegaChurch”. I have been attending for 7 years and I owe my salvation to Fellowship and Ed Young.
If a church isn’t growing then what is it doing? I think the saddest thing is to drive by a church on Sunday and there aren’t any cars in the parking lot.
So, wouldn’t it be beneficial if all churchs were striving to be “Megachurchs”? Imagine a world where all churchs had 1000, 2000, 3000+ plus people attending each week.
In the original post it was stated “It’s hard to have any type of community there, unless you’re actively involved in one of the community/small groups.”
Isn’t that where community is suppose to happen? Church is for worship.
Can a church really get too big? I’m not so sure it can. Now the leadership can definately get too small, making it seem as though the church is too big… but that’s something completely different I think.
So when do you plant… when God says so.
I know that isn’t exactly what we were looking for. I mean, to just say do it when God says to, doesn’t put a whole lot of meat into it. Or a practical guide to help.
I think its important for churches to know their communities. Do you need another church on main street right between the 1st and 2nd church? Or is there some group of people you could beter minister to by planting a new church? It’s already been said and I just agree, prayer is the key.
God speaks to the body. Jesus is the head, he thinks it and we do it. Or at least if we are listening to what he says we do.
I’m like everyone else… interested in hearing more thoughts on the practical application of the question.
Andy,
I am interested in your answer, but I also am interested in your Executive Teaching Team you described. I sense that there is real wisdom in recognizing that your church is becoming Andy-centric. I am sure that you and others have posed the question, “What if Andy gets hit by a bus today?” Where would North Point be? I think spreading out the teaching responisbilities is really smart and it takes a humble man to be able to give up some of the teaching responsibilities. What about your strategic partnerships? Do they have to use a DVD of you or your executive teaching team? Or can they pop in a Nooma video from Rob Bell and use that in their service? Or can they develop their own teaching team?
-Lee Taylor
Atlanta, GA
Adam, I didn’t mean for this to become an Ask Andy stream. My apologies. On the other hand, I have enjoyed the input and insight. Perhaps I should join the world of blogging.
As to the optimal church size… I pretty much agree with what everyone has written. In fact, our answer to that question may seem a bit…simplistic… compared to previous entries.
Our theory is that a church should be allowed or encouraged to grow large enough to sustain a viable high school and middle school ministry. A successful student ministriy requires critical mass in order to capture and keep the attention of their target audience. So the question becomes, how many aduilts are required to generate critical mass for a student ministry? That depends upon the demographic of a community.
If you are a twenty six year old seminary student with a couple of kids in diapers that may not sound like a great answer. But if you are a church planter with 150 people and one of your elders just informed you that her family is leaving because you don’t have anything for her thirteen year old, it makes painful sense.
Parents will put up with a lot in big church if thier teenagers feel connected to a student ministry.
That’s it. Reaction welcomed. We’re still learning.
Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts. Thats good stuff.
I’m impressed by the simplicity nd clarity of it… that is why Andy is so gifted as a leader. I’m a church planter 6 months in and will remember that as we plan our next church plants…Thanks Andy!
Andy
I think it would be wonderful if you joined the blogging world.
I haven’t read the whole thread yet, but I *AM* the church planter with a church hovering between 100 and 200 in attendance, and we’ve seen lots of people leave (in part) because we can’t sustain a viable student ministry. And, yes, it’s painful.
Thanks Andy! All of the student pastors just caught a ray of hope. Not to speak some leverage for next weeks staff meeting. I can here it now…
“Andy Stanley says that Student Ministry is the key to growth. You do want to grow don’t you?”
On behalf of my brothers and sisters in student ministry, God bless you Andy Stanley, God bless you.
Hmmm. Interesting.
That is actually a little different from the focus of the ‘growing’ churches in the area of New York that I am in. Here the focus is on childrens’ ministry. For the same reasons. And with the same outcomes hoped for. Children’s pastors are more common in churches here than youth pastors. These are fairly small churches trying to grow…so maybe once all the children become teens, the focus will change to include them. I hope so.
I REALLY like that teens are so valued in your churches Andy. They need to be. The secular culture works so hard to capture their hearts and minds: to think that the church could be focusing so much energy to attract them, meet their needs and keep them, well that is powerful. Teens are the next adults and the next generation of church leadership.
What you say is exciting and makes perfect sense! Thanks for sharing your insights Andy!
Metro… I’m so glad you posted that comment. Small churches should always play to their strengths. Small churches should only do what they can do well. What you can’t do well, don’t do at all. Sounds extreme, but remember, mediocre never triggers momentum. Ever. Mediocre just uses up resources.
New churches that try to have something for everyone usually end up with nothing great for anyone. New churhches and small churches should acknowledge that they cannot create great student environments until they get bigger. Having admitted that, they should do exactly what you are doing in NY – drop back and focus on children. When parents complain, just be honest. Tell ‘em it is Ok to send their kids to the church down the street. Don’t ask them to put their kids in a bad student environment. That will sour them towards the church.
If you do a great job creating relevant environments for children you will attract parents. As long as you are attracting new adults, you are moving in the right direction.
One of my church planting heroes is Tommy Politz. He and his team planted a church about six miles from NP in an area of new growth. In the early days people would come to him and ask what Stone Creek was planning to do for single adults. Tommy is a smart guy. He knew better than to try and have something for everbody. So he was honest. “Nothing.” He made it clear that in the early days they were focusing on families. Primarily young families. Then he would suggest they visit North Point. You gotta love that. That’s why I love Tommy.
I know some church leaders (and parents) are concerned when teen ministry programs isolate teens from the larger church community during worship and teaching times. The fear is that teens will get a false sense of church (never interacting intergenerationally with the body of Christ and/or church always being about THEM, etc.).
The long term strategic plan and execution of youth ministries will surely impact the future health of the church – say 10-15 years out – and beyond.
It seems a monumental, but incredibly important task of the church today to have a global and forward thinking worldview while being focused and grounded in the ministry of today, knowing that will shape the church of tomorrow.
Does attractional ministry have a future? I ask this simply because the big word is “missional” these days.
I have really appreciated this discussion.
I would also encourage Andy Stanley to join the blog world on a more regular basis…just hearing some of your thoughts has been insightful.
I think one of the most refreshing things for me has been the realization that our ministry cannot be all things to all people. Quite frankly there are other ministries in our area that are better equipped to handle certain areas of ministry.
What I find interesting though is that the people who are most concerned about those things tend to be the pew hoppers and shoppers. The unchurched are just proud of themselves for actually being in church…they don’t really seem to come with any expectations of “service”
Bingo!
Another aspect that I think is crucial to this discussion is culture. Many of the ideas and theories that Andy is sharing here are excellent within certain communities/cultures. But lest we forget, we are just one part of a global Body of Christ.
Personally, I have attended churches of the size that we are discussing (and not just as a visitor) and find that they aren’t for me. And while I think that there are serious concerns with the mega-church model, I don’t think they qualify for a rejection.
I think that this kind of dialogue is important for all involved. However, again, I think that this topic and Andy’s question/theory on church size needs to be held with the dynamic tension of culture in mind.
Peace,
Jamie
There is a whole other model, at least under discussion. (See Nick Spencer, Parochial Vision. Paternoster Press U.K.) It’s the model of the ‘Minster’ church. Minster churches were not run by a bishop but by an abbot-they were monasteries with a congregation attached (They flourished circa 500-1000AD in England.) In all the villages there were essentially house churches that met on Sundays, served by a monk from the minster church. All in the house churches were members of the minster church, whether they came to the large service or the small one. All the leaders of the house churches were monks who were members of the minster church ‘staff.’ The mother church, then, did not compete with the house churches, but rather resourced them, so the house churches had small church pastoral intimacy with large church quality ministry. This was not a cell-church, with lots of small groups of people expected to come to large services on Sunday. The house church members met in their villages, they were not expected to show up at the minster church service except for special occasions (which were important times of unity and celebration.)
This model would change the whole concept of church size. There could be a mother church congregation of 2000 but 2000 house churches in the network. Spencer sees a couple of large churches in the UK beginning to operate like minster churches instead of cathedrals, but no one has really tried this idea seriously. Someone should.
Tim Keller
Re: Andy’s comment about sustaining a youth and middle school ministry.
Amen, amen, amen, and AMEN.
I’ve been in youth/young adult ministry for over 20 years, and have worked in megachurches, medium churches, and as a church-planter (network of house churches model). But the ongoing focus has always been the emerging generations.
Yes, as a parent, I have primary responsibility to raise my children in the things of God, but my experience as a “lifer” in youth ministry has been that Christian peers are vitally important to Christian teenagers (hey, it just “community” on a demographic-specific level).
Therefore, a church that is unable to provide community for the emerging generations may not be big enough yet.
My biggest concern in the emerging church is that the 20-somethings and up will have a great time deconstructing and building communities that they really like, but lose their own children in the process because they were deprived an age-related Christian peer group.
And Andy, two things:
1) Compared to some of the slams you’ve received here (early on, anyway), I thought your first comment showed a great deal of restraint.
2) I’ll add my vote to what others have already suggested: you really should join the blogging world!
Grace and peace,
Robbymac
RE: Church size…
Why not just hear a concensus from the proven prophetic voices in relationship with the local body – whether within or without?
If the prophecy is encouraged and growing within the body of believers as it should be, then why not use it? That’s why it’s there.
No formulae necessary if you follow Christ. He didn’t leave His church with formulae, rather with gifts. Eph 4:11 & 1 Cor 12:8-10
To speak against a church because you don’t like what they’re doing is dangerous ground. If God is working there, whether it’s with them or in spite of them, to speak against it could be considered blasphemy.
Last I read from some popular book, that’s pretty serious business.
That’s right Tony. That’s why I stopped criticizing the Mormons and joined them. Because they’re growing faster than anyone, and being discerning or criticzing them would definitely be blasphemy. . .
….Or not.
That last question Andy asked was a good one. My wife and are joining up with a new church plant in our area that will have to deal with this. The church plant is supported by 3 other churches, and the primary church has 2800.
I’m pretty sure that the plan will be to rely on the “mother” church when it comes to big events for youth and children. The planting scenario is a lot like NPCC, with hopefully 400 people to start and 5 FT staff. The target is younger families, so youth and children’s ministries are a huge part.
I think if a church wants to birth a new church, they should identify what environments they want to do extremely well, and plant with the size to support that. So, if that means they want to start a church of small groups with 20 people, they just need to be able to send 20 people. If they want to start a church with thriving youth and children’s ministries, they should grow to the point where they can send hundreds to support that.
Andy, that original post was hilarious. I was rolling laughing while reading it this morning. See you at S@NP…
Nick
i disagree with andy’s comments on student ministry. using the logic that a critical mass is needed to retain/attract families, the authority in the life of the believer is the family, not the revelation of God.
george barna, in “transforming children into spiritual champioins” has something to say along these lines: “often we seem bent on ensuring that the next generation will have a better lifethan did the preceding generations–the ability to life ‘the good life.’ but we define that life as the presence of comfort and security combinded with the absence of hardship and diappointment. well-intentioned parents often try to buy experiences and environments that foster a soft and satisfying lifestyle for their progeny.”
even parents in the church try to buy their children’s a good church experience assuming that will yield a true faith experience.
God can and does work through hardship. God can and does work through imperfect people and churches. for some reason everyone is jumping on the boat that says it has to be perfect, big, polished, not distracting, etc. in order to be effective. if nothing else, give our students credit that they can discern sincere attempts at teaching.
who knows, maybe they think to themselve, “the Bible must be important to that teacher, because they absolutely suck at teaching it, they know they suck, but they continue to do it anyway. i’m not willing to let myself look like a fool, and yet they are willing to look like a fool for God.”
respectfully…
Forgive me if I am repeating something already stated- I have read or skimmed through most of the posts. I currently attend Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, a church size of 18,000+, they have no membership nor do they pass a collection plate. My wife and I travel 23.2 miles each way twice a week- Why? because that is where we are fed.
4 years ago we would “cyberchurch” instead of making the drive. One Sunday morning while eating muffins and drinking coffee- Pastor Bob at the start of the sermon, looked into the camera, pointed, and said- “You sitting at home eating your muffins and drinking your coffee need to be here instead of sitting at home! Turn off the computer and get to the next service.”
My wife and I knew he was speaking to us. Needless to say we got around and got to the next service. Our lives have changed more than I can express! I know the Lord used pastor bob to help us change and grow.
Have I personally met pastor bob- no. Does he walk around after the services- yes, when he can. Church size and participation is all what you make of it.
The Lord will use whom He chooses to use- its your job to be listening.
My question is this for those who don’t like mega churches- As a pastor, are you going to pick and choose who can attend, and turn away those who are seeking when you reach a certain number?
Frankly, I am shocked to hear students who want to be pastors yet do not want a large church. If your led by the Lord, do you really want to cap that?
By the way, we are actually moving to cumming, GA the end of this month and look forward to attending/”joining” NPCC.
TAZ
Delray Beach, FL
have we forgotten that the averaged sized church in the USA is less than 100? This country is made up of “small” churches….so, the mega-church is the aberration and only located in high population or metropolitan areas of the country.
Maybe we get caught up in what the ideal size of the church should be? We all have opinions about that as evidenced by this thread.
Another thing we haven’t really touched upon is location…or facility. Is it really necessary to spend a good deal of funds to procure (often times at high cost) real estate, and then build a multistoried megastructure in the latest and greatest designs….rather than rent space at a strip center or a “home depot” type facility???? Is this being a good steward of God’s money?
It’s pretty common (at least in this area) to see membership or attendence skyrocket after they’ve moved into a new facility. Is having a new church facility or a modern facility akin to driving a Mercedes Benz/BMW as opposed to a Toyota Corrolla? After all, both can get you there the Toyota just does it cheaper but without the “style”. Would “people” not come to church unless it had all the amenities they are used to at home?
Is it just a GIVEN that church leaders want to build the biggest facility they can possibly build in order to get more and more people thru the doors? Is this the best use of $$?
Man, I’ve never been a part of a thread that went on for 7 months. Crazy.
I’ll weigh in with those who think it’s a cultural thing. The American suburban corporate culture is very well served by mega-churches. Those who already drive a long way for work, shopping and entertainment will think the megachurch a godsend. And for them it is. Most in the Emerging Church movement(as far as I can tell) seem to be rejecting this American suburban corpate culture as much as anything specific with church. I know I am. We are moving into the city, working for small businesses, not shopping at malls, etc. Mega-churches seem to represent everything we are rejecting in American suburban corporate culture. Does that make sense?
I visited Buckhead Church with a friend of mine this past weekend and it was interesting/disturbing enough to do a little Google to find out more about Andy and the church.
I am the son of a Methodist minister and grew up in the Methodist church but I have frequented Catholic, Baptist, Methodist and non-denominational churches over the past two years. I’ve been to a few “Mega” churches and I’ve had mixed reactions to most of them. The contemporary music never really spoke to me, but most of the messages have been top notch.
Buckhead Church has been my worst non-denominational “mega” church experience by far. For one, there isn’t a single cross in the entire building, or on the outside of it even. If “contemporary” means removing Christ and the symbols of Christianity from the church, I can live without it. I will say the place was jam packed. People were sitting on the floors and there were rows and rows of “saved” seats. (At least the seats, if not all the souls, were saved!)
The service also seemed focused more in entertainment than on any kind of spiritual enlightenment. The band, rather than God or Jesus, were the centerpiece of the show. (and it was a show.) They were artistically rendered in video on three big screens with lights and smoke and the whole shebang. It was a huge turn off.
Even Andy didn’t mention Christ or Jesus during his message. He preached straight out of the Old Testament with a couple of cartoon super heroes, Clarity Girl and Action Man, to introduce him. Once again, Jesus was subverted and an alternate message was put forth. Heck, Andy himself wasn’t even there. He was piped in by video feed.
I know that this new type of service is designed to draw in people turned off by traditional services, but it wasn’t a Christian service at all. It was a kind of secular spirituality. No Lord’s Prayer, no scripture reading, no cross…nothing that would or could be recognized as a Christian service at all. I think the whole contemporary service has gone a little too far. I think only lip-service was paid to Christianity. It was like a secular service in Christian clothing. Unfortunately, I think all too many people that may be unfamiliar with Christianity might be drawn into this kind of service and never learn what Christianity is all about.
Some of you who have posted would benefit from watching/listening to the Simply Irresistible series from North Point. Specifically the Relevant Environments message. I think you would better understand the why behind the what. For instance, music (contemporary or other) isn’t meant to speak to you, it’s meant to be an expression of worship TO God FROM you. So the style is just style, a method, something that isn’t bound by scripture like the content is.
Jesus didn’t wear a cross necklace or a WWJD bracelet, yet His ministry flourished. What is the centerpiece of the “show” is determined by the worshiper. It’s up to us to make God the centerpiece. We must watch out for performance on stage, when it should be worship, but that cannot be determined from one visit, without talking to the worship leader to know their heart.
By the way, what’s a secular service?
Erwin McManus says “The greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity.” Maybe that’s what we are seeing in churches that want to box-up and define worship with rules, instead of focusing on the relationship with Christ. I’ve heard Andy say that churches confuse theology with methodology, and I know that to be true because of my past experiences. I think that’s what some people do when they look at “contemporary” or “mega” churches and judge them. Because the style and method isn’t what they’re used to, they think it’s false theology, and write them off. When, in fact, the theology is the same, only the methodology is different. In my experience that’s a tough mindset to repair. Reciting the Lord’s Prayer is an example of a methodology. In fact, Jesus said this is “how” you pray, not “what you pray every time you gather”. There’s nothing write or wrong with doing that, it’s just a method.
Jesus was all about going against traditional beliefs, styles and methods. I think we need stronger relationships with Christ, and less requirements for christianity and church.
It is true, we have no crosses in any of our facilities. We don’t have any fish hanging on the walls either.
My favorite comment about the cross comes from CS Lewis. It goes something like this, “The cross did not become a symbol for Christianity until after everyone who had actually seen one used had died.”
Just a thought.
While my wife and I were living in Oklahoma City, we started attending LifeChurch.tv. This operates under a similar platform as NPCC. LifeChurch’s statement is actually “one church in multiple locations.” The worship comes from local bands at each of the warehouse locations (they’re in those “Home Depot” or “Store Front” locations, and it saves them lots of money, and from what I recall, each of the five services (2 on Saturday nights, 3 on Sunday mornings) are packed.
Just to affirm this method of “megachurch,” and the relevancy of the messages, my wife and I had previously been fired from our recent church staff position (a traditional church that did not care for our methods of ministry – something that LifeChurch, or NPCC would not have done under those circumstances), and on our first Sunday, the series Pastor Craig spoke on was “Letdown.”
Call it superstition, but I had no doubts that God was speaking to us that morning.
Nikolai,
You and I actually agree on a few things. For one, I see and agree that the contemporary Christian music with the band and everything is a form of worship and I agree it should be worship to God from man. It just never really appealed to me personally. My main concern at Buckhead Church was that the band became so much of a focus that it almost seemed that the band itself was being glorified, rather than glorifying God and only God. The sheer entertainment value of it put me off. It makes me wary that there is too much show and not enough substance. If it came down to a choice between being entertained and being enlightened, I’d rather be enlightened. Entertainment fills the seats, but the message fills the heart and soul.
That brings me to the second thing that really bugged me about the service. Andy is a very charismatic and gifted speaker. But the message came from Andy, not from the scripture. The message wasn’t necessarily wrong or bad. I think it’s up to the listener to take away what’s good or bad about the message and there is almost always good to take away. It’s just that the message and the point of the message came from Andy and the support came from scripture. Old Testament scripture at that. My feeling is that the point of the message should BE the scripture and the message should expound upon and reinforce the scripture. The scripture is God’s concrete word, Divine or Divinely inspired. Shouldn’t the job of the messenger be to make the scripture more accessible to those who seek the truth? And isn’t the message the NEW Testament? Jesus and Grace are the message, week-in and week-out. Jesus came to make the OLD Testament null-and-void. No longer was the gap between God and man reliant upon man’s following of the letter of the law. We never can succeed because all of us sin and fall short of God. Only Jesus should bridge that gap.
So it wasn’t that the message was bad or that the messenger incorrect. It just put me off because I felt that the point was human-inspired and human-derived rather than and used scripture as a support.
I do have to say that my friend has gotten a great deal out of her experience at Buckhead Church and I am incredibly touched and grateful for that. She has renewed her spirit and has really begun seeking God because of her experiences there. No matter what I think is right or wrong with the set up or ceremony, God has worked his will and that’s good.
I will say that I did agree with Andy on one thing: the importance of the Bible and reading the Bible every day. Prayer also is incredibly important.
Andy,
To C.S. Lewis’ point, yes, the cross didn’t become a symbol of Christianity until everyone who had seen one had died, but I think that’s the point. When those who had seen the cross had passed, the world needed a concrete symbol and reminder of Christ to replace those living symbols that had passed. It is a powerful symbol that we as Christians must pick up our crosses every day to follow Christ. Replacing or removing those outward symbols of Christianity may serve more to sideline Christ. Couple that with a very polished media show and the substance of the message can become subverted.
These things were all points of concern for me and I am glad to be able to express them here. I do want to say that I didn’t have a bad experience at Buckhead Church. There were just more points of concern for me than there had been at other churches. It did spark a lot of thought and discussion with my friend, however, and I know God has used that to teach both of us and hopefully bring us further along in our spiritual journey.
God bless you all and good luck to you on your own journeys.
As I frequently tell my staff, “It’s not about the steeple, it’s about the people? I wonder how many churches in America have crosses, steeples, “fishes”, etc., yet on any given weekend (which usually means Sunday 11:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m.) they are empty, dying churches going nowhere and impacting no one? I think NPC undestands what it’s about. As for Andy’s messages, I suggest Andy preach this message this weekend: “Good morning. Jesus said, “Love your neighbor as yourself. Now go do it!” Let’s pray.” That alone will be enough for us to know and apply for the rest of our lives. It will wear us out. Just loving our wives the way Jesus tells us to will keep us busy enough without knowing anything else the Bible says. Try doing one thing Jesus told us to. Hmmmm.
Andy is one of the most gifted and creative speakers there is. He knows how to make the Scriptures come alive and apply it. The problem often is we don’t want to apply what we already know, we just want to know more…to be educated. Guys like Andy, and I hope me as a communicator, focus on life transformation. By the way, this blog is fun. Keep it going.
Kehaar wrote:
And isn’t the message the NEW Testament? Jesus and Grace are the message, week-in and week-out. Jesus came to make the OLD Testament null-and-void. No longer was the gap between God and man reliant upon man’s following of the letter of the law. We never can succeed because all of us sin and fall short of God. Only Jesus should bridge that gap.
Kind of off point from this conversation, but I would say yourunderstanding the full Gospel and the scriptures is way off on this one. Jesus did not come to make the OT “null-and-void” but “to fulfill them” in fullness (Matthew 5:17ff).
We are called (as pastors/preachers) to teach the “full counsel of God” (Acts 20) and as far as I can tell people like Andy Stanley are doing it incredibly effectively.
I can’t help but wonder if a lot of the critiques aren’t based on envy, jealousy, and/or based on personal likes/dislikes—but no grounded theological critiques.
Even if you don’t like the style or approach of larger churches, we should be praying for them, celebrating with them, and thankful for them.
Ben
Okay, so thanks to Brother Maynard at Subversive Influence for notifying me about this discussion! Wow, lots to ponder. Who woulda thought I’d find not only Andy Stanley in the blog world, but that I’d also find TIM KELLER entering the “blogosphere”.
I must admit that I’d never heard of the “minster” church (church history must be rusty), even though I had discussed this very idea with a fellow staff member a couple of weeks ago (large pca church in S.C.). The reaction I got was, “just go plant a church if you’re not going to gather with us on Sunday a.m.” Is the goal to impact our city for Christ or make sure that all of “our” people are gathered under the same roof on Sunday a.m.?
I think this is a promising idea. Perhaps one downside for our particular church is our desire to influence our Presbytery…which can lean to the very conservative side sometimes…so if we plant churches, we have a greater ability to influence our presbytery than if we have 10 smaller churches going under the same church association. I’ve considered planting a church for our church, but would much prefer to “plant” a church that is still a living part of this church. I think a group of churches aligned missionally could be a powerful force in reaching our city.
Anyway, Kudos to Keller for suggesting it…and I would love to hear if Redeemer is actually thinking about trying this…
Andy‚Ķas far as the ideal #…what do you make of Malcom Gladwell‚Äôs # of 150 in ‚ÄòThe Tipping Point‚Äô? BTW, I‚Äôm a youth pastor, so I‚Äôm still pondering over your response to your own question‚Ķ
Peace.
oh. my. goodness.
I just cut and paste this thread into a word doc and it is 75 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I mean I ‘copied’ this thread…but you knew that
OK…Andy, so start your own blog and we can give Adam’s a rest!! ha ha (hey, it is a little scary to think that the threads on your blog might never end…I know! It would be a MEGA-BLOG!!!)
LOL!!!
Ben,
Whether I’m theologically correct about the Old Testament or not, I’ll leave open for debate. The fundamental difference between the Old and New Testament is how we get right with God. In the Old Testament, the method is the Law. In the New Testament, it’s Grace. In that sense, Jesus is the only way to repair the distance between God and man. In that sense, Jesus nullifies the Old Testament. Grace instead of Law.
My comments are not motivated by jealousy or envy. I knew nothing of Andy Stanley or Buckhead Church or North Point Church or any of that before Sunday. My comments are also not related to the size of the congregation. I think that any church drawing the kind of crowd I saw on Sunday shoujld be applauded…as long as it is delivering the right message. My comments are driven by what I DIDN’T see there. What I DIDN’T see a lot of was Jesus. Not in the trappings and not in the message. That is really disturbing to me.
Luckily my background has provided me with a lot of Christian education and experiences. Not everyone drawn to Buckhead Church probably has those experiences. If I were a first-time visitor to that church and didn’t know much about Christ, I wouldn’t have known ANY more when I left than when I came.
It’s fine to draw people in with a contemporary service with contemporary music and a great sound and light show, but that only goes so far. When you get them there and draw them in, you have to tell them what Christianity is all about. You can’t simply rely on special effects and a dynamic, charismatic personality giving a positive but not scriptural message to bring people to Christ.
Based on what I saw Sunday, which is admitted only one incident, someone coming to Christ for the first time would be the exception rather than the rule. I was entertained and given a positive, moralistic message, but not taught anything about Christ or what Christians believe. That is very, very disturbing. In light of that, having a bigger church and a larger congregation simply means more people may be being mislead.
For the record, there was a lot about “God”, but very little about Jesus. Except for the one verse from Samuel, you wouldn’t have known the difference between praying to God the Father and “Dear Higher Power”.
Again, this was one experience and I am sure that Buckhead Church does a good job of bringing people to Jesus. It just wasn’t in strong evidence on the one day I was in attendance. I do pray for and support anyone trying to bring anyone to Jesus and the Lord. It’s just a fine line between putting on a smoke-and-mirrors show and truly teaching the Gospel.
Please accept my comments as those of a concerned Christian. I have no ill will towards any man or church that professes Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. I just want to see those who seek find.
Excellent thread for discussion and I’m glad to be part of it.
This thread has so many varying viewpoints that it seems most things have been covered; that said, I wanted to respond to kehaar about the ‘entertainment’ aspect that you felt about the service. I can see how that could turn you off, it does feel I guess like a concert feels, w/ lights, dark room, a lot of people, a really good band rocking out, but it’s funny – I was @ Buckhead on Sunday, and I was thinking the exact opposite of you! I was thinking, I love that the band is so good that I don’t think about the music (being off key, or just generally not that good, or having 25 people on stage) and how that really helps me to concentrate on worshipping God. Every Sunday, it sort of reminds me of One Day, the Passion conference, with a lot of people all praising God and enjoying His presence, worshipping him and at the same time reflecting on the qualities of Christ and God through the lyrics. It is not at all entertaining. I’m there to worship and that’s what happens. But that’s a preference – some people find liturgy more worshipful, and reciting creeds and prayers of the historical Christian tradition – but I don’t think either is the ‘right’ way, it’s just different ways, of worshipping God.
Also, someone might have mentioned it earlier, but when Christ taught the masses of people in His day, he used parables and stories, and he didn’t even quote the Scripture that much. But among his closest disciples, he went into the deep theological teachings.
I don’t see how NPCC’s teaching styles are that far off – the large services incorporate very applicable teaching (although this Sunday Andy’s sermon was based directly in 1 Sam. 24) – and deeper teachings in smaller settings (ie small groups).
I’m glad that you visited and it’s always so interesting to hear different people’s takes on different services – it just shows how individual we are, how different we are, as people, and as Christians, and God gives us that freedom to worship Him as we see fit. You’ll find many very different, yet Christ-honoring models of ‘church’ and ‘worship’ in global cultures as well – but if a traditional style allows you to worship God, or a contemporary style allows another to worship God, or to come to know Christ, than all the more wonderful that the different types of people are out there ministering as each sees fit as called by God, and if either style is winning and discipling souls than that is what the Church is for.
what happened Cleaves? Remember when he used to have a blog. . .I hear that he’s offering free space to some down and out pastor from north of atlanta these days. . (hehehe)
This is a great thread. Andy its awesome that you’ve jumped in here.
Kehaar, I think it’s easy to se that it’s just preference for styles and methods. You like expository preaching, and Andy preaches topically in order to make it helpful to NPCC attendees. As he has said before, all scripture is equally inspired but it’s not all equally relevant. You like traditional worship style and they use a contemporary style. These are all methods, with pros and cons, fit for different people. I think it’s awesome that churches can be uniquely different and therefore reach and grow different people. Otherwise, they would just be another church!
Personally, the topical style of preaching is much more helpful to me. I can easily look back and identify a major spiritual milestone in my life, that came as a result of listening to Andy Stanley’s & Louie Giglio’s messages regularly. They are excellent communicators, and plenty of other pastors use the same method. I think the difference was it was more than just information, which is all I got from the expository preaching during my teenage and early college years. It was excellent expository preaching, and I learned a lot as a result, but it wasn’t helpful and I couldn’t apply it to my life. That’s one thing Andy is extremely gifted at, making scripture relevant and helpful with great insight.
Nick
I want to respond to Kehaar. I really do appreciate your comments, and I had felt some of that myself when I first came the NPCC. I’ve attended only a few times myself, and it’s really growing on me. The music is certainly a huge focus, and because of the spectacle it can easily be seen as having too much importance…after all, it’s very much like going to a club and seeing a rock band play. For that I have to say it’s really up to the individual to not let it become THE reason to show up for the services. For some people, music, whether it’s a lively show such as that at NPCC or just a big traditional choir, is the main way they feel connected. For others, it’s the crowds and feeling of being a part of something, while others love the sermons. You should check out a book by John Ortberb entitled God is Closer Than You Think. He has a chapter dedicated to spiritual pathways, or ways that people tend to naturally lean in their worship. He also has wise warnings about rigidly thinking inside your own little box.
Regarding the cross issue. I, too, felt a little uncomfortable with the lack of traditional Christian symbolism. My first take on the church was that it was more like an office building or a sporting event. Every church I had ever attended had crosses, some that were at least 50 feet high! Yet, if you do your research into the actual modern use of the crucifix, you’ll find that the physical cross we have used as a symbol of Christ’s precious sacrifice has roots more in Catholic-influenced art than historical accuracy. Certainly, the meaning behind the cross is of infinite importance to a Christian, but it’s the act it represents, not the cross itself that deserves reverence. For me, it’s important to remember that worship belongs to God, not to symbols. I’ll leave it to you to research that if you feel the need. Anyone can wear a cross around their neck and any wall can have a cross nailed to it…but that doesn’t make the person a Christian or the building a church. The theme I’m seeing at NPCC from my few times attending is that the objective is a personal relationship with Jesus, first and foremost…not conformance to tradition and symbolism.
Andy-
I am a 26 year old senior pastor. I truly have no clue as to what I am doing, but I know God has called me to this position. I have used Visioneering, Next Generation Leader, and 7 Practices of Effective Ministry as foundations and models for my calling and ministry. I am currently reading Creating Community. Keep up the solid work man, I need all the help I can get!
Do you really think this was Andy Stanley? When I read it, I thought it was an imposter…
It’s Andy, it’s been confirmed.
John Maxwell, I love your leadership stuff :-)
John…Injoy is spelled with an ‘i’ not an ‘e’.
What’s this nonsense about how one could not experience community in a mega church–as if community is something that we expect to be served to us on a platter, instead of something we seek out? I’m curious to see how this person defines community. Is it just knowing someone’s name and family members? Or is it weeping over sins and struggles and fears together? I’d define it as the latter, not the former.
Regardless of your church size, you can only have a viable communal relationship with about 15 people at a time. That’s just social dynamics. So regardless of the size of the church, the size of what is called your “oikos” group is only going to run about 15 tops.
Granted, some churches make community more of a value and facilitate it more than others. But that is a function of the church’s VALUES not its size.
What kind of interaction does one want from their pastor? I don’t understand this paradigm of the pastor being the only person one can receive counsel and wisdom and guidance from. I attend a megachurch (and I like my pastor very much), but I have no desire to chase after him for relationship. That’s not his purpose in my life. He’s leading the church. The body is to be my support, wisdom and guidance.
This model of the pastor being the one we need to have relationship with instead of the people sitting next to us on Sundays strikes me as very unbiblical and unhealthy for a church body.
BTW, I have attended a church as small as 16 people and one as large as 7000. Each one has its ups and downs. I’m just tired of this contempt for a large church and the assumption that they’ve sold out and it’s all empty fluff, that’s why they are so big.
Hogwash.
Couple of random observations:
Regarding not connecting with North Point’s size, music, lack of traditional symbols:
I respect that and believe it is wonderful that we are blessed with a diversity of church sizes and styles to reach a diverse population of people. So long as the theology is sound, follow the lead of the Spirit within you to the size/style to which you are called. I hope we can all realize that the size/style that is descriptive of one’s calling is not necessarily prescriptive for others.
Regarding preaching from the OT in the NT Church.
Just a thought…check the quoted source materials and especially the results of the very first NT sermon ever delivered (Acts 2).
Regarding speculation as to the depth of the teaching at North Point and its impact on the spiritual growth of the congregation:
Please allow me a moment to counter the speculation with first hand experience. I attended a denominational church from birth, accepted Christ at 12, and gradually drifted away from the fellowship of that church due to Hybels’ infamous “boring and irrelevant.” My sum total Kingdom contribution prior to North Point consisted of directing Vacation Bible School one summer.
I attended North Point for the first time in mid-2003 and since:
- Jan 2004 enrolled in seminary
- Jun 2004 led both of my children to Christ
- Jun 2004-current, leading middle school small group, 5 have accepted Christ
- Director of volunteers for my seminary’s sponsorship of Atlanta Fest
- Grow Up Conference volunteer, etc…
Attempts to force obedience through fear and legalism in my prior circumstances were utterly ineffective. I am called to the size, style, etc. of North Point and have been provided the courage and freedom to follow the Spirit’s led in devoting my time/talent/treasure toward God’s purposes…and I can’t wait to see what’s next!
I’ve been lurking here for a while, and find this whole mega-nonmega discussion rather interesting.
My ONLY church experience was as a teenager; and it was in a non-denominational mega-church. This was some 20 years ago.
The church had it all – wonderful youth programs (including a Monday night youth worship service with a live band), exciting worship and music, and a powerful/dynamic pastor. Exciting stuff for a teenager and young adult. All was going well, the church was growing by leaps and bounds.
Enter demands from the pastor of the congregation for a new building, and “if it doesn’t happen, we (the founding pastors and their families) will move to Brazil”. The congregation (myself included) spent a lot of time and energy self-building a new building. Now, enter the demands for 20% tithing “or you’re not a true person of God” – or some similar bullying tactic. The church grew to the point that the “interim building” was a tent set up in the parking lot that seated a couple thousand. No, I’m not kidding.
A few more things went on (which age and highly effective mental blocking have erased), but I’d finally seen enough and left the church at the tender age of 19.
With all that went on before, I wasn’t very surprised a few years later when the founding pastors, and the youth pastor, were all involved in sex scandals. Lawsuits flew, tabloid TV arrived, the media had a field day. Thousands (yes, THOUSANDS) of members left, as did a number of the pastoral staff.
Needless to say, I sleep late on Sunday mornings — and have done so for quite a few years now.
Andy, I know of your church. I live within a few miles of your church. I certainly am NOT drawing ANY parallels between you and the church I have mentioned — far from it; I know of your church, your works, and your message. If I were “in the market” for a church, I think NPCC would be pretty close to what I am accustomed to (even after 20 years) — except for the scandals!! :-)
I gave my own limited church background to say this: Churches are like restaurants; some folks like the intimate small cafe setting, some like the cafeteria style. The food’s the same, it’s just the atmosphere.
Others of us just prefer (for whatever reason) to brown-bag it. And there’s a lot of us out here….including others who also carry the name…..
ex-harvester
PS – thanks to all for indulging me….
That’s funny. Andy Stanley and John Maxwell. Only Andy is really with us.
John, just a thought. You may want to spell your ministry’s name correctly on your email.
Ex-harvester,
What a coincidence, I also attended a few Monday night youth services in the “big blue tent” back in my college days. If you do a little research, I believe you will find that pastor involved in scandal both prior to and since the one you experienced. I share that trend only to make the point that what you experienced is reflective of the nature of that individual not the nature of Christ’s true Church. The biggest shame of a wayward shepherd is the resulting lost sheep.
Would you consider “indulging” me? Videos of North Point’s Sunday sermons are posted and archived on our website (www.northpoint.org); during some of your “brown-bag” time, would you please watch a message or two? After hearing a few messages just ask yourself if the Church, under the leadership of a different shepherd, is possibly worth a second try. If your heart still says no, then thank you for indulging me. If the answer is yes, stop in for a Sunday or two and see what you think. Feel free to contact me if you end up at the latter answer and I can help in any way.
I’ve been to NorthPoint and have heard Andy at several conferences. In my opinion, we all need to find something better to do that argue about churches being too big. Who cares what YOU like, when did life become all about YOU? There are people out there who are attracted to large churches. Great. There are those who are attracted to small churches. Great. Now can we please find a better use for the internet than this?
For all the ex-harvesters out there: Any time a spiritual leader requires you to do something publicly based on something God has told him or her privately, run!
But that doesn’t seem like really fair advice Andy. Doesn’t every spiritual leader (especially pastors) base their ministry on something God has told them during their private relationship and worship to God? And then don’t they take that ‘personal revelation’ into a public ministry? And aren’t their congregations influenced by it?
Doesn’t God reveal Himself to us individually – during times of prayerful solitude with Him? Many churches pay for their pastors to have a sabatical – a time to get away and go and hear from God on behalf of their ministry and congregation. It happens everywhere – all the time.
Many seminarians will find themselves pressured by their future congregations and leadership teams to do just that. And surely Andy, you have done the same for your church? Have’nt you?
Seminarians here who read those words, might draw the conclusion that God only speaks through committees and boards and never to a leader alone. But the whole Bible is based upon spiritual leaders hearing from God (privately) and speaking it (publically). Think of the prophets. Think of the disciples.
Some who now claim to hear – perhaps did hear God at one time. But fell away under the heady seduction of the powerful position of leadership. And became corrupt and abusing leaders, not worthy to lead God’s church. But that doesn’t always happen.
Maybe better advice would be to pray for Christian leadership that they will not fall into sin. Pray for discernment that you will know when the boundaries in leadership have been crossed. Pray when to know to confront leadership. Pray for God to show you if you should run from such ministry. Pray that you will never fall into such temptation in your own ministry. But know that it could also happen to you.
Hey all – glad you could have a great conversation here, but my Inbox is being flooded with these comments, and I think I’m getting ready to close the comments on this, just so the conversation here on pomomusings can go to other directions. At any rate, thanks for your thoughts, and if you have any “Closing Comments,” post them today, as I will close the comments tomorrow morning. Thanks for playing! :) And Andy – thanks so much for joining in – someone said that I had been “blog-jacked” – but it was fun and I’m glad you took the time to venture into this media communication form. Thanks!
Metro,
I agree it would be unfortunate for any to draw a wrong conclusion and your post has helped me to realize that my initial attempt at tactfullness could contribute to that end. I still do not wish to name the pastor, but below are more specific examples that clarify the context under which I fully agree with Andy (but please recognize that I in no way claim to speak for him):
I believe in the doctrine of The Priesthood of All Believers:
“Every Christian has direct access to God in prayer through Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, and that there is no mediator between God and man other than Jesus Christ (Heb 4.16; 1 Tim 2.5; Rev 1.6).” (Luther Rice Seminary Doctrinal Statement)
I do not believe the following quote, from the pastor I referenced, is in any way a revelation of God to a “modern day prophet”:
“The Lord said to me tonight for those of you that really plant and hear what sister [Name Deleted] said and you’re willing to obey, you that have cancer in your home. I know this sounds enormous and I pray before God that you understand. Now I speak as a prophet. When he asked the little woman to give the last that she had. I speak as a prophet to those who have cancer anywhere in your family, anywhere in your life, that if you will obey God tonight God promised me there will be thousands of people under the sound of my voice that will be healed of cancer…As a prophet of God I’m asking you to give what you got in your hand. I’m asking you tonight to say, ‘God, I’ve heard what the word of God says, [believe] the prophet and I will prosper…If you will follow what God has said, I tell you right now letters will pour into TBN and they’ll be telling you cancer has been healed all over this country! And they’ll say, ‘What happened?’ Well, the prophet of God aid it was going to happen!” (Name Deleted, TBN, Fall Praise-A-Thon November 1, 2004)
Rick, thanks for for clarifying your point. I absolutely agree that such a comment from a pastor is an outright lie, an abuse of power and moral corruption that has nothing to do with God. No question there at all. And if this is what Andy was referring to, then I agree with him – RUN!!!!!!!!!!
My thought was more in line with this:
if all ex-harvesters fear all pastors who claim to have heard from God – and
if all pastors fear claiming to have heard from God because of the fear it causes ex-harvesters or
if pastors fear hearing from God because they might become like the man you described or
if ex-harvesters fear hearing from God because they might misinterpret what He is saying,
I can see a cycle that can move beyond healthy discernment and becomes something that replaces healthy Biblical relationships within the church. (and the relationship between the church and God).
Adam – you’ve been an awesome, generous and patient host!! Thanks for a great couple of weeks of blogging!!! :)
Grace and Peace,
metro
Andy,
Feel free to post whatever you want on my blog (www.bobfranquiz.com). It’s yours whenever you want to talk about something. This dialogue has been hugely helpful to me and my staff who have also been reading this (and I’m sure many others). Thank you for posting some great stuff here. And Adam, thanks for being our host…
Bob
Andy,
How is the satellite in Dothan going? Curious as to how often “guest” speakers are in the satellite meetings?
PS Anyone with T. Lowe on staff must be doing something right!
Troy
I can’t believe that I only found this discussion today. You would think that I could find a 3-4 month long discussion on something like this.
I have had the privilege of attending almost every church mentioned in this discussion. My father grew up at First Baptist Atlanta where Andy’s father pastors and I grew up several blocks from the Stanleys. I spent a significant amount of my chidhood at Perimeter Church which started in a tiny office space in the late ’70s and has now spawned dozens of churches in Atlanta and has become a megachurch in its own right. I spent high school at Westminster Pres. in Atlanta, a tiny 150+ church, spent time at medium sized churches in Greenville,SC, and at small churches in southern California. I’m now at Intown Community Church in Atlanta. I have visited Northpoint, Buckhead Church, Church of the Apostles, Willow Creek, Redeemer in NYC, and more that I have forgotten.
I mention all these experiences because they have taught me that there is no right way to “do church”. There is no right size. There is no right worship style. There is no right sermon style. And THAT IS OK.
You see, context is very important. I have noticed many people criticize various elements of the worship service at Northpoint. But the context has a lot to do with this. For those of you who have not spent much time in the South, Christianity is a cultural thing here. I remember thinking in college at Auburn University that we had to first convince people that they were NOT Christian before sharing the Gospel with them. Because of this cultural issue, many people in the south have various hangups or issues with their conception of “traditional church”. So what is wrong with lowering some of these obstacles?
I’m amazed at the sense that some people in this discussion have that assume that certain church things are Biblical when in fact they are cultural. There is nothing Biblical about having crosses in your church, having a sermon, passing an offering plate, having an “invitational”, or doing music in any particular way. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with these things, but they don’t constitute the Gospel. Does it matter what people wear to church? No. Does it matter that people walk in with Starbucks coffee? No. Does it matter if you like the musical style? No. Does it matter if the sermon is academic enough in nature? No.
Would Tim Keller’s model in NYC work in Atlanta? Not without some major tweaking. Would Andy Stanley draw such a huge crowd in SF? Maybe not. Would Bill Hybels have the same success in Seattle? Doubtful.
The context matters, people. In this manner, each of these people are being “missional”, as Tim might say.
Is Northpoint the church for me? Not really. And that is fine. It doesn’t need to be. Do I have any doubt that Andy is doing God’s will? None.
Peace,
Dignan
Dignan’s 75 Year Plan
Thanks Adam.
Adam, thanks for the bandwidth and the forum.
Andy, thanks for the wisdom and insights. You really need to have a blog of your own. Don’t make us wait for another conference to hear this kind of stuff from you. I’ll pay for it if necessary. ;)
amazing what an innocent drive over to church on a feb morning can start! great dialogue..
peace
mark
If I were Mr. Andy Stanley I would have just said to all of you to read his book 7 Practices of Effective Ministry. That should bring it all into perspective for you bitter success haters. Northpoint actually does what Jesus commanded us to do which was reach the unbelievers, instead of minister to the people who think they already know everything and how church should be run and comlplain about success in the name of Christ. If you don’t like church with big numbers you’re probably not going to like heaven.
You people put yourself ahead of everything else, complaining about how big the service is and the worship styles and how everything makes YOU feel. The saints are able to worship God while being tortured but you can’t do it because theirs too many other Christians in the room? That’s pathetic. But yea read that book. Or Pod cast it, the podcast is called practically speaking.
Haha, this it almost ridiculous… basicily the only reason I’m posting this is to show that i finally finishished reading this… Props to Andy Stanely, Perry Noble, Rick Warren and all the other mega church leaders out there that are following God and Reaching out to the unsaved.
I LOVE MY CHURCH. North Point is awesome. I wish I had time to explain. e-mail me if you really want to know why I think it is so great.
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