North Point Community Church
February 8, 2005
While in Atlanta last weekend, Mark, Sarah and I went to North Point Community Church, where Andy Stanley is the pastor. It was definitely my first megachurch experience. Sarah actually didn’t think the sermon was all that bad, and…it wasn’t. But, I just know I couldn’t attend a church like that. It was pretty hard to find a good seat because everyone just had rows and rows of seats saved (any theological thoughts on seat-saving in worship?). It’s hard to have any type of community there, unless you’re actively involved in one of the community/small groups. I didn’t really like going to church and having it feel like I was going to a concert or huge convention (complete with the parking lot attendants, orange vests and everything). We were in the auditorium that Andy was preaching in, but…there were a few more thousand people in the opposite auditorium where Andy’s sermon was fed into. Again, just not the type of interaction I want with my pastor (or, if I was the pastor, with the body in the church).
I’m not going to get into some “Megachurches suck and they’re a complete waste of time and space!” type of rant. I just know that for myself…yah, definitely not a megachurch kind of guy. There is no way that I could handle pastoring a church that big, and I most definitely would not want to be a member of a church that large…
Definitely an interesting experience though. Anyone else been there? Anyone else have any megachurch experiences that were bad…good…neutral?
Tags: Andy Stanley, Megachurch
Posted in 
February 8th, 2005 at 6:21 pm
Adam, one of my friends did an internship with Northpoint and she told me that no one, I mean no one, in the church is allowed to meet with Andy. One of the overlooked facets of megachurch life is that the pastors are not pastors, they are CEOs. How can you preach every Sunday in a real and vibrant way to a church that you don’t even know? I’m sure Andy has droves of informers who keep him up to date about the latest needs of the congregation, but still. I don’t want to follow a shepherd who doesn’t smell like the sheep! But, I guess when one is only spouting propositional truths that have been inappropriately extracted from the Bible, it doesn’t matter if you don’t have any contact with the church proper.
February 8th, 2005 at 6:30 pm
My wife and I were both part of various megachurches for several years, and unfortunately it is largely in spite of these churches that our faith survives! Our experience has been that churches this large by necessity begin to assume more of a corporation-like character, and the pastor becomes a CEO of sorts, and not a shepherd. I for one must question their benefit. On a side note, incidentally my wife’s old [mega church] youth pastor co-wrote a book with Mr. Stanley.
February 8th, 2005 at 6:31 pm
FYI, the Jake and I must have posted simultaneously - interesting that we would both use “CEO” to characterise the pastor-figure . . .
February 8th, 2005 at 7:30 pm
Interestingly, Brian Wren led our Preaching and Worship class today and lectured on the different formats for worship: the classical, the classical minus weekly communion, the frontier style that ends with an altar call, and the seeker style. The seeker style struck me immediately because I think it describes North Point so well. It is a format for worship where everything leads up to a message and a response is not required - it is simply hoped that those present will seek further. My problem with a megachurch, aside from those already mentioned is I don’t think the sermon was a sermon. Adam, you are right, I didn’t think it was bad - my other experiences of megachurch and evangelical church have been aggressive ones where people tried to save me, which I just resent for some reason. But, I don’t think Andy was working through the scripture to preach the Word. I felt like he had a point and he used scripture to support it. I didn’t disagree with his point (God’s up to something and you’re invited), and I appreciated that he left it more open than he could have, but I didn’t feel like he wrestled with the text or helped us to wrestle with the text. Maybe I’m a little too high church, but as intriguing as it was for me, I didn’t feel like I worshiped.
February 8th, 2005 at 7:47 pm
http://www.northpoint.org/sermonaudio
here’s the link to the actual audio of the sermon by Stanley from this Sunday…
February 8th, 2005 at 11:12 pm
Isn’t any church larger than about 40 people really a megachurch in the sense that community begins breaking down and can usually only be found if you’re “actively involved in one of the community/small groups”? My experiences in churches of 800, 600 and now a church of 150 is that real community is found outside of the service in small enclaves of Christian communion-ity. I think the two things about megachurches that offend our sensibilities are the orange parking vests and the difficulty in imagining that the service (and the pastor’s message) are really directed at ME. This is easier to do in smaller churches, but the community still is only present if I find myself in a smaller enclave.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:14 am
several of my friends went to North Point. I went there once with a group of girls that I was involved in Intervarsity with. It was SOOOOOO big. I was incredibly uncomfortable there.
I went back twice because they raved about how wonderful it was and I wanted to see what it was that they liked so much about it. I couldn’t figgure it out.
I like small intimate settings for worship. I like to be able to have the chance to get to know everyone I worship with. I guess I just feel like the unity aspect is completely lacking at churches that are that big because there is no way to ever possibly get to know everyone.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:20 am
i don’t know…. i’m still figuring out this whole megachurch thing. i don’t think i would be all that comfortable in a church of a thousand people, but there are interesting studies out there that show that your circle of connected relationships in a faith community is usually around 20ish. no matter the size…. 50 or 5000. usually still the same size ‘group’ of friends. i find that interesting.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:00 pm
Growing up at Willow Creek, I have a lot of experience with megachurches. I left the Chicago area to go to school in California (Azusa Pacific), and for a while out here I was attending megachurches. I really became frustrated with the large church feel, especially the lack of community and no relationship with the pastor. So my wife and I have finally found a church of about 200 people that we like, and more importantly has a sense of community.
Interestingly, for my Sociology Research Methods class during my undergrad, I did a research project with a classmate on small groups in megachurches, and whether or not they created any sense of community. Sadly, at least in the church that we looked at, the small groups completely failed at their aim of creating community. (e-mail me if you are interested in seeing it) Needless to say, I will not be attending a megachurch anytime soon.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:03 pm
usually around 20ish. no matter the size
I agree with this. But there is still a very different feel at a church of 200 people and a church of 15,000. I recognize pretty much everyone at church every weekend, and I know many of them. I may not have close connections with them, but I have talked to them. I recognize when there are new people, I know that pastor, and people are encouraged to get involved. It is a much more intimate feel.
So I have real “connections” with about 20 people in the church, but I have some connections with most people in the church. You cannot say that in a church with thousands of attendees.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:23 pm
there are pros and cons to all kinds of churches. megachurches aren’t inherently bad - they just bring a different perspective to church. the same with a small church - they just bring a different perspective to church. both groups meet a certain group of people where they are, and however they function, hopefully impact their congregants life’s journey. being emergent or postmodern or postchristian or postwhatever, we may tend to be focused more on a smaller community which is ok. we probably should find where we fit best in our own context and focus on important things in our world like some of the other thoughts adam has written about.
February 9th, 2005 at 12:51 pm
megachurches aren’t inherently bad - they just bring a different perspective to church
I agree with this. Having grown up at Willow Creek, I know that I would not go there again if I lived back in the Chicago area. At the same time I also see the impact that Willow had on me. It was what I needed at that time.
February 9th, 2005 at 1:00 pm
At the emergent convention last year, I remember Jonny Baker saying that if his church reached over 50, they would prob need to split. While things are certainly different over in the UK, I wonder what this means for alt.worship in the States.
In the fall, a weekly gathering called 7:22 for singles in Atlanta that meets at North point, attempted a service based on silence. I think it pretty much flopped..Too many people? Maybe..but also there was the problem of attempting a service that encourages worship (freedom of movement, openness, creativity, etc.) which the presuppositions of the regular gathering prevent…
Mark
February 9th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
I don’t like megachurches either, but to places like a Willowcreek, their original intention was not to be “Mega” it just turned in to that, and then everyone tried to model it. My parents have been going to a MegaBaptist church in NC, and they have a more intimate community within their small group, than they ever had at their home church of 300 folks(which they were a part of for 45 years). The worship services at Six Flags over Jesus is tough for me, but I am delighted that they have smaller communities for my parents to lean on.
February 16th, 2005 at 9:43 am
I think everyone needs to remember something - CHECK THE FRUIT ON THE TREE! What this chuch is doing is working. People are hearing great things about our Lord and about life. NP has created an environment to attract those young people that are wondering what church is all about. I agree with shoog (above). Is the term MEGA as referred to as a negative? Is it wrong to have your “cup runeth over” with people that are searching for something? In my opinion if you become this so called MEGA CHURCH you are doing something right. Again, remember in all aspects of life “Check the Fruit on the Tree”!
March 13th, 2005 at 3:48 pm
I attend North Point Community Church and will never ever leave there. It is the most amazing church I have ever attended. It is definitely the place for those who “dont do church”. I surely dont “do church” and cant imagine anyone ever wanting to–UGH!
Yeah, it’s huge. Dosent matter though. You gotta get involved in a small group anyway–no matter where you attend. No other way to grow and develop close, dependant relationships where you can experience life together with your brothers and sisters. Any church with over 20 people—forget about it. You gotta get in a small group. That is God’s model for the church as shown in the book of Acts.
P.S. Andy Stanley is a remarkable communicator. Incredibly humble and genuine. His God given Gift is “teaching” and so that’s what he does. He leaves the pastoring to those with the God given gift for it.
I have been a believer for 30 years and have never experienced God like I have at North Point. Not even close.
March 13th, 2005 at 3:51 pm
P.S. The fruit at North Point is remarkable.
March 16th, 2005 at 1:57 pm
I just happened to catch this site as I was playing around on Google. It saddens me to read fellow christians denouncing Northpoint simply because it does not feel comfortable to them. Like it or not Northpoint is a seekers church who’s main purpose is to bring people to a lasting relationship with God. Just visit on any Sunday and it will become quite clear to you that it is working. Isn’t that what this is all about - saving souls. The Sunday services are designed to open the door to seekers and create a desire for them to seek God. Fellowship and bible study are more a part of the small groups. I hope that you all will find more positive things to discuss rather than calling the kettle black.
March 17th, 2005 at 11:40 am
“Just visit on any Sunday and it will become quite clear to you that it is working.”
I’ve visited many Sundays and this is not clear to me. How should it be?
“Isn’t that what this is all about - saving souls.”
Its all about salvation. Salvation is much more than just saving souls. Salvation is historical-eternal, bodily-spiritual, individual-communal as well as Trinitarian in nature. By reducing salvation to only saving souls (which Northpoint may be good at), we are reducing the gospel and thus reducing God….
For example, why has Northpoint only started satallites in suburban areas? What about the inner city? What are the poorer parts of Atlanta? Where is the ethnic diversity on stage? These are all part of the salvation that God brings…
mark
April 16th, 2005 at 5:12 pm
I’m a Romanian pastor and I had the unique chance to participate at a pastoral conference with Andy Stanley about ‘The Iressistible Church’, conference who took place this past week.
As I read your various comments I realise that once again prophets are not welcomed in their native area… Despite some positive comments, your negative view is almost maladive. I wonder if in general you are willing to be a part of the solution or you really are a part of the problem and that’s why you need a Church to softly take care of your needs…
I heard from Andy that his Church membership counts only 4,500… The other people are unchurched attracted by this great ministry. Tell me which Church will attract at it’s Sunday service more visitors than the number of members? I grow up in a Church where for a visitor to have a chance to get the message he first had to ’suffer’ a cultural barrier generated by the selfish perspective of the Church members who designed such as service to over-feed them, with no care about unsaved. That’s noth the case of North Point.
One more word. Many conferences I went in the past, with famous speakers, were informational… This one with Andy has been transformational. Definitely my life has been changed during the three days conference.
I don’t wonder about the lack of impact on the life of those who briefly visited the NPCC, already with a bad view about Mega Churches. In order to judge it you have to know it’s mission statement and to evaluate the way that’s fulfilled or not.
But if you went there looking for a creche, I think you missed the address.
April 18th, 2005 at 10:55 pm
Me, MY, I, I want, I feel comfortable with, me, me, me, me. - It seems that all I hear from the people who don’t like what happens at places like Willow, Northpoint, Saddleback etc., is that it doesn’t appeal to them. In one way that is OK, but if the really cool thing is if you hang around Willow, Northpoint, or Saddleback long enough you find out that as Rick Warren says on the first page of his book “It ain’t about you!”
The reason the buildings are so full at these places is that their leaders have been blessed by God to be able to create environments where people are connected to God, connected to each other (if they want to be!), and enabled to reach thier world for Christ.
So what if I can’t meet personally with Andy Stanley (why a I so important) - but if I as much make a phone call to NPCC and express a need, there are multitudes of people who will listen to me and guide me, and help me. The need to be able to meet “the pastor” is a self-centered ego trip.
I am so glad to be a part of what God is doing at Northpoint - I am so Glad that Andy Stanley cared enough to create an environment where I can envite my co-workers to participate in a important part of my life and not have to bring a cultural interpreter.
One thing I want to add is that Northpoint is not a “seeker” church - it cannot be so narrowly defined - Northpoint is simply a church - I have been a christ follower for over 30 years and the work of this church continues to help me deepen my walk and help me follow Him more. I literally would not who I am without the community there.
April 19th, 2005 at 3:35 pm
I was a member at NPCC until I recently moved to Louisiana. I think that you might be missing the whold point altogether. Northpoint has a vision and a mission and it sticks to it. Here is the mission…
The mission of North Point is to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. We accomplish this by creating irresistible environments led by skilled staff and volunteers. To find out more about our three key ministry environments read below.
foy•er (foi’ er, foi ya’) n. an entry. — It’s the place in your home that serves as the welcome area for guests and new friends. It’s the first step, and it’s often your only chance to make your guests feel comfortable enough to return. That’s exactly how we’ve designed our entry environments at North Point Community Church. Our Sunday morning worship services are “foyer” environments. We want our guests to come back, so we do everything with them in mind. Each area of our church also has its own foyer: middle school has Xtreme, high school has Rush Hour, families have KidStuf, and singles have 7:22. These environments are where most people will experience NPCC for the first time, and they serve as the perfect place to introduce newcomers to the life of North Point Community Church. So, come on in …
liv‚Ä¢ing room (liv‚Äôing room) n. a room in a home, with sofas, chairs, etc., used for social activities, entertaining guests, etc. When guests arrive and are welcomed into your home, you invite them into the living room. Everyone finds a comfortable place to sit, and the interaction begins. At North Point Community Church, this is where you connect with people like yourself. Smaller and more interactive than the foyer environment, these gatherings offer genuine opportunity to begin friendships…just like the living room in your home. For single adults, this environment is called FUSiON. For married adults, there is MarriedLife Live. The living room events for students are Xtreme and Inside Out, and for college students it is College Connection. Come into the living room and have a seat…
kitch•en (kich’en) n. a room or place for the preparation and cooking of food. — Webster’s definition doesn’t help us much, does it? But think about it. What is the most popular room in your home? Where do you end up when friends or family come over? The kitchen. This is where lasting friendships are made. And that’s the kind of environment we are striving for in our small groups. Small groups are where people meet regularly for Bible study and prayer, and commit to accountability, friendship and support. They are the safe place to open your heart, share your life, and ask the tough questions. Small group opportunities for adults include community groups, Starting Point, and Crown. For students, small group time happens during Inside Out, Xtreme, and UpStreet Kids. Small groups are the place where ministry happens at North Point Community Church. And we want to help you get there.
Northpoint is a large church. But Northoint provides community in a way that works very well. To be a member of Northpoint you not only attend the worship service on Sunday, but you attend community groups as well as small groups. You can’t have community with
4,000 plus members. And they know that. That is why they have created environments to have community. Even if you were at a church of 50 people (you can’t possibly have intimate fellowship with all 50 members) And by the way Andy does not refuse to meet with members of the church. I have not only met Andy, but e-mailed him when I had a concern about one of his sermons and he responded to my concern.
I believe in ACTS 2:42-47 community. I know that NPCC does as well. I also know that we can share our opinions, but the truth is NPCC is doing a wonderful job of reaching the lost for Christ, especially those who have been turned off to the church completely because of their previous church experiences. I believe as the body of Christ we are to love the church and even though there are different kinds of churches. (charismatic, traditional, small, large, seeker-sensitive etc…) I am not saying to condone any activity that is not in accordance to the scripture, but by attending Northpoint one time, you did not get a real picture of Northpoint. You did not attend a community group or a small group. This is where real fellowship and community occurs. When you go to church on Sunday’s when does community occur? Worshipping together with the body! Yes, but you don’t get to share the real life struggles and joys until you get in an intimate setting with less people.
I used to lead HS ministry at NPCC and I was on the ministry team for 7:22 (praying for young adults after the service). Real life change happens at NPCC. Maybe you could not be a part of this type of an environment, but you should first understand the church before making a complete decision. NPCC has purpose and vision! And I am sure if you talk to the staff it would be more important for someone to attend a small group and community group then to attend church on Sunday morning.
One more thing. If you are not involved in the lives of your community and meeting with them, sharing in their sorrows and joys, are you really in a church? When I attended Northpoint I had all of that and then some. Everyone can be utilized in their giftings in a small group / community group setting. You just have to step out of the foyer and into the living room and then into the kitchen!!!!!
More thoughts… Church is not about a building, it is about community. I suggest you research the Chinese Church (Back to Jerusalem movement and read a book by brother Yun) you probably will not find theologian’s and big church buildings, but you will find believers meeting in homes united in Christ. (unlike our denominational walls that seperates and divides us). Where is the church growing? Not in America!!!! Think about these things… It would just be another interesting conversation to see what anyone thinks on the issue of unity in the church and how that can be achieved….
Hey I am coming only with thoughts and discussion. No hard feelings, just my thoughts. And you know I am definitely open to others thoughts!!!!
April 19th, 2005 at 3:53 pm
Correction on something I wrote…
I said…”And I am sure if you talk to the staff it would be more important for someone to attend a small group and community group then to attend church on Sunday morning.”
I meant to say that the three are equally important… But that if you go to church on Sunday morning you also need to be a part of a community group and small group as well!
So replace more with equally! I would not want to miss out the worship….
April 21st, 2005 at 5:40 pm
Tara,
while I agree that one would be remiss to place judgment upon any church with out attending, I would contend (being that I was a staff member of a church that sounds relatively familiar to NP) there is something intrinsically wrong with church only functioning properly by attending all “three” NP aspects. Where is the time for relationships outside of church (please don’t respond this is a perfect time to invite)? Time for family? WHat if you are apart of a ministry team? Do you attend all three aspects, in addition to leadership meetings and outside ministry events? What if you’re married? Have kids? A full-time job? Church like that ends up filling up the schedule and leaving little time for the quality (in my experiance). And God forbide you happen to miss out on the occasional service or event.
But I do agree that church is about the people not the building, however, when bills start rolling in, no matter what point the discourse starts at, the building becomes all consuming. If church is really about community, then why not dissect it into many little communities difusse throughout the city it’s in. Empower the lay people. Have service in homes or in smaller enviornments as to be conducive to relationships. My point here is, is size really conducive to one’s “mission”? Because size is not the barometer once epoused by Hybell’s and the purpose driven pastors.
April 22nd, 2005 at 10:17 am
Isn’t it neat when something you write just seems to live on and on….
I’ve attended both NPCC and Saddleback, but not been a member of either. I found Saddleback rather uninviting but NP seemed very community centered. Saddleback, while I agree with many of their principles would not likely be a place I joined, NPCC whould be.
Adam began not by denouncing NPCC, just saying it wasn’t for him.
I appreciate Bob’s post about the “self-centered-ness” of some church goers. In my opinion, Sunday morning worship services should be about Worship. Not the one time during the week when you come to get “filled-up” or educated on the word, but a time when you come together with others who have been worship all week long and join in a mighty worship experince to God. When this happens, it’s truely something to see and will attract people - both church goers and unchurched.
Sadly though, many people seem to look at church like a social club. To often I hear things like “I recognize pretty much everyone at church every weekend, and I know many of them.” That saddens me. It saddens me that I recognize pretty much everyone at my church - it means we’re not being effective at reaching out to the community.
Lastly to address the “church filling up the schedule” post….The week is 168 hours long, the month 720. A few hours here and there in church, a leadership meeting, and doing some ministry each month will not total 72 hours…and God deserves at least that much.
April 22nd, 2005 at 3:24 pm
Jesse,
I agree that God deserves all we’ve got but are you telling me that it’s within that which I mentioned? And as for knowing everyone at a church service being sad, does that mean that the only way a church as a collective or as an individual being is “effective” when souls become quantifiable?
Don’t confuse the hours of the week becoming dictated by the church as necessarily dictated by God. Isn’t He “worth” that? Yes, but that mind set is the very one people run from and feel persecuted by when life becomes difficult, leadership becomes cumbersome and those you serve with begin administering grace with the question, “so where have you been?” The trap here is measuring someone else’s life within my own context. That is not what church is about.
NP may be great (and by the sound of it, it is), but your use of words and ideas like worship (which is to be a daily occurence, not something within the static parameters of Sunday only), effective, and “doing ministry” seem to be the very reasons why many are rethinking how church is done.
May 29th, 2005 at 9:12 pm
I attended NPCC for the first time this morning. It was definitely overwhelmingly large, but not as large as I had thought by reading some of the postings above. I had expected a Joel Osteen type of size, and it wasn’t that… but I found out that I was in only one of the auditoriums :-)
It was a different experience. Very much targeting the younger generation, which I still claim to be a part of at 39. My young son enjoyed the Christian rock music and all of the lights. The sermon wasn’t really what I would call a traditional sermon, it was more of the Osteen “inspirational” type of thing, but I was pleased that it actually did involve scripture. I have been attending a UMC church and the minister there preaches for about 15 to 20 minutes on a good day and there is no looking up of scripture.
I’m still standing on the fence with the experience. I felt a little resentful seeing people walking around in short pants and sneakers, but maybe attire isn’t really important. Maybe it’s my traditional upbringing that made me feel like the ultra laid back style somehow cheapened the message. I’m a laid back sort of guy, but I take my worship very seriously, and I don’t like being in a church that makes it more trendy than necessary…as it seems to attract the type of people that come for the wrong reasons and don’t let the Word have an impact on their lifestyle and faith. But it’s too soon for me to really be able to judge NPCC in that regard. I’m going to attend a few more times to see if I can get a better idea. I may look into the smaller groups as well. If it seems to be more fluff and motivational speaking than worshipping of the Lord, then I’ll move on to another church…after all, you can get that sort of thing by listening to a Tony Robins CD. But if I find that it’s the real deal, I’m going to make it my home.
June 18th, 2005 at 5:27 pm
A few ideas to consider:
- Does God want our heart or our suit and tie?
- Why must a church be considered good only if me, myself, and I find it enjoyable (i.e. I like this worship song, I don’t like this worship song) Could you be missing the point that the church exists to glorify GOD and not ME?
- Worship is “your response to who God is and what He has done” and it doesn’t just take place on Sunday. Saying that you didn’t feel like you “worshipped” at church is a misunderstanding that worship is what you do every day in every detail.
- In many cases large churches that have non-approachable pastors are actually functioning at peak performance because the pastor’s role is to COMMUNICATE in a powerful way the truth of the gospel. If the pastor is overcome with hundreds of people who want to meet with him then he is taken away from his area of giftedness in speaking. Powerful communicators need to do what they do best….communicate….then the people will come.
July 11th, 2005 at 12:37 pm
I had my first visit to North Point this weekend and was amazed. It was one of the best worship experiences I have ever had.
Do I think less of them because I couldn’t meet Andy? No Way. Look at the Bible, even Moses was rightly counseled to step back and only take the ‘difficult cases’ that others couldn’t handle to prevent a burden he couldn‚Äôt handle well. It’s not reasonable to expect Andy or any other minister with 10,000+ to shepherd to be easily accessible. It would be counterproductive. It’s not about him, it’s about HIM. And meeting Andy Stanley shouldn’t make a difference to someone hoping to meet Christ. His job is to cast vision to the congregation and his organization. He does that VERY well on stage and behind the scenes.
I’d suggest you read Creating Community by Andy Stanley and Bill Willits. It’s clear to me after reading those that if you don’t get involved in a small group at NP, you’re missing out on at least half.
The original poster said “It’s hard to have any type of community there, unless you’re actively involved in one of the community/small groups.” Correct! So get in a group. Corporate worship can be effective with 50 or 50,000 people. Community is not able to take place at anything above 20 or so people. You must be able to separate community from worship in your mind for this model to work. That was easy for me.
Sean
July 17th, 2005 at 11:02 am
Wow.
God drew me to NPCC about seven years ago. I was lost, dead in my sins, without hope of salvation or even hope for tomorrow. Of course on the surface, my life appeared wonderful and it seemed I had everything. An ex-Catholic, I’d given up on a distant, irrelevant, ritual-loving God. I hadn’t really prayed or attended a ‘church’ service of any kind for almost a decade.
For almost two whole years I sat in the back of NPCC on Sundays, anonymous. Nobody knew me, but I had never felt known by God like this. I listened to the Word of God being preached with authority for the first time in my life. There were lots of other people there, but it might as well have been just me, there with God. He spoke directly to me through his Word time after time. I didn’t understand how this was possible! I cried a lot.
Gently, lovingly, my heavenly Father brought me to a place of surrender, of complete trust in Christ and His work on the cross. That was in July 2000.
NPCC does not exist to provide an awesome ‘worship experience’ for an hour on Sunday morning. Our God is passionate about seeking and saving the lost. So am I. I was the lost. People everywhere are desperate for truth, lost without Jesus, destined for eternal separation from God. It’s not trivial, and it’s not about numbers.
I’m no theological genius, but I do know that.
I can live without Andy Stanley. I don’t even like crowds. I can survive without loud worship bands, I can even live without my community group. But I can’t imagine my life without Christ, my savior. I was introduced to Him at NPCC. For that I am eternally grateful.
Kristen
July 31st, 2005 at 12:54 pm
Amen Kristen. I wrote a comment earlier about my first experience at NPCC. I have to admit, I have been every Sunday since. Andy’s message is definitely what got me to keep returning. He’s not an egomaniac. He’s more like the guy next door, just a humble, normal sort of fellow. However, he understands where traditional churches and definitely religion have failed. His father was a minister, so he has quite a background in the faith. NPCC is really about (1) your relationship with Jesus Christ and (2) a community of caring and connecting people. I’m staying. This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. Sure, there are things that aren’t perfect about the place, like people walking into the worship service with Starbucks cups, but in the grand scheme of things, who cares? It’s not about judgements, or rituals, or strict rules and rites. It’s about YOU and Christ. If they took away the praise band and all of the “cool” things about the church, it’s STILL be about YOU and Christ. It’s not about Andy, or being trendy, or the loud music. It’s about YOU and Christ. Period. Praise God. Amen.
Please, if you are reading this…come to a service twice. Why twice? Because the first time you will be overwhelmed and will need to digest it all. The second time, it will click.
July 31st, 2005 at 1:06 pm
I re-read all of the comments in this thread, and have to comment one last time on one of the first ones…posted by Robert. It was that Andy didn’t really have a “sermon”, but rather spoke his own opinion and used the Bible to support it. I have to share with you my experience at a Methodist church that led me to NPCC in the first place. The services there were as traditional as you can get. Hymns, prayer, creeds, bla bla bla. The pastor “preached” for about 15 minutes TOPS. He never actually said ANYTHING of substance. It was the most worthless fluff I have ever heard. I left there every Sunday wondering what the sermon was even about. It wasn’t some little hole in the wall church either. It’s a prominent church in the community…but there were consistently empty seats each Sunday…I’d estimate only half to 60% full each week. Why? Because there was nothing SAID. No substance. It was all about rituals, hymns, and a bunch of traditional nonsense that could have been repeated by robots. People need more than that. NPCC is growing by leaps and bounds…wild growth! Why? Because it is about Christ and people…not rituals and reciting creeds.
August 5th, 2005 at 3:25 pm
I was a member at North Point Community Church (with Andy Stanley) for over a year. I left because many things about the church are just plain unbiblical:
1. They do NOT require small group leaders to know anything about the Bible. I was in a meeting at the church where small groups were being formed and they specifically said that they needed “facilitators” for small groups. When hardly anyone volunteered, they said that you just need to facilitate a group, and that you don’t need to know anything about the Bible. I asked them about this to make sure I heard correctly, and they again said that you don’t have to know anything about the Bible. The reason is that you are not a “leader”; you are a “facilitator”. “Facilitator” is a politically correct term for leader. If you were in the small group and you had questions, who would you look to for answers? The leader, right? Well, having facilitators instead of leaders is a convenient way of allowing teachers who don’t know anything about the Bible. Compare this practice to Acts 6:1-6. If the disciples had to be “men full of the Spirit and full of wisdom” just to hand out food to widows, how much more should a small group leader be full of the Spirit and full of wisdom? Some of the groups watched Tony Robbins videos, which are new age to say the least, but since nobody knew anything about the Bible, how would they know that this was spiritually damaging? My personal group degenerated into feel-good talk and not discipleship.
2. They play secular songs in the worship service. Not always, but they will play songs written by non-Christians and without the intent of glorifying God. They’ll say that if you think about the song, it could be used as a worship song. But, the Bible is clear that if you do not belong to God, you belong to the devil, and the devil is not going to write songs that are glorifying to God.
3. There is no cross in the building. This is not such a big deal - you don’t need a cross in a church to be a real church. But when I asked why there was no cross, I was told that they didn’t want to make anyone uncomfortable or to offend anyone. Compare that to Gal 6:14 “May I never boast, except in the cross of Christ.”
4. They use some scripture in the sermons, but it is used to support the points of the speaker. The type of message given is almost always “feel-good”, pop-psychology, or stories, and rarely true Bible preaching. It is a cheap-grace message which preaches the grace of God without first preaching repentence, and why we need repentence. You can’t experience God’s grace without repentence. It is very rare that you will hear a sermon about Jesus’ most quoted teaching, which is found in every gospel, and in 2 gospels twice: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” If this is Jesus’ most common type of teaching, why is it not taught? But you will hear John 3:16 a lot. There’s nothing wrong with that, but they need to preach repentence first. See http://www.wayofthemaster.com
August 5th, 2005 at 3:34 pm
The reason the church is growing so fast is that they preach a watered-down version of the gospel.
I understand that many of you came from boring, dead churches. When you go to NPCC is seems so alive - it must be biblical and right! Please don’t make the mistake of calling this a church that preaches the entire gospel just because it is exiting and lively, and has good words to help you with your marriage, work, or relationships. There are some churches that are lively AND preach both sides of the gospel. I encourage you to visit http://www.wayofthemaster.com to learn more about this.
Mormons proclaim Christ too. Just because someone proclaims Christ doesn’t make them biblically accurate. I’m not saying NPCC is a cult! But they preach only one side of the gospel.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, (4) and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
August 7th, 2005 at 1:11 pm
Yes, I can see the point of Clay…but I don’t necessarily agree with it all. The watered down environment, well, yes. It’s true. It’s really not a church, in the true sense. It’s more like a spiritually inspired gathering. There’s way too many people that show up because it’s the trendy place to be…so they can say they attend, but have no accountability to do anything other than “gather”. There’s a big difference in gathering in the name of Christ and actually living in the name of Christ. Yet, it’s really not for me to judge…anymore than I have a right to judge that soccer mom in the SUV with a Jesus fish on the bumper who just cut me off on the way to the sermon. The church is just too big. It’s too easy to be anonymous and just show up. I’ve been going there for several months now, and I would say that in most cases, the plastic offering buckets that are passed are EMPTY. It makes me sad to see the lady sitting there in cut offs and flip flops drinking her venti Starbucks coffee, and then passing the bucket right across her lap without a second thought. Then again ,I wonder how in the world they are funding that place. It sure ain’t from tithing…
Andy Stanley is a great pastor with an incredible gift for teaching, but I fear it’s just not reaching the people who are attending because there’s just not enough Jesus in the message.
August 18th, 2005 at 5:30 pm
The reason NPCC grew so fast is because of small groups, and leadership multiplication. The small groups provide more of a New Testament community than most churches that are 100, 200, 300, 400, etc have. Even though they fellowship together because they all know each other (I’m from one), they don’t walk through life together, which is what real community is all about.
I’ve listened to over 100 NPCC sermons, and I’ve never thought the gospel was watered-down. Actually, of the roughly 100 different preachers from different churches I’ve heard, Andy provides MORE Biblical truth AND application than anyone of the others. I think some people confuse the amount of scripture read out loud with the amount of Biblical truth understood and applied to the learner’s lives.
What side of the gospel do you think NPCC leaves out?
“but I fear it’s just not reaching the people who are attending because there’s just not enough Jesus in the message.” –what does that mean?
August 29th, 2005 at 6:15 pm
I’m writing to aplogize for the size of North Point Community Church. When six of us gathered to think through the idea of beginning a church we had no idea that it would become so large. For this growth I am truely sorry. I realize that the size is intimidating.
I have read the comments on this site and have decided to make some changes. To begin with I am going to spend time with each and every parisioner so that they can get to know me personally. Like many of you, I wouldn’t want to attend a church where I could not connect personally with the pastor. I’ve shared this with my wife and three kids. They are in complete agreement. So beginning next Sunday I will be at the back door to shake hands.
Secondly, I am going to suggest to our elders that we sell our three campuses, consolidate, and move the church into a much smaller building. Smaller space will mean smaller crowds. And aparently large crowds are unbiblical. I agree, the church should be no larger than 40 to 50 people. Most of whom are believers.
Regarding my shallow, simplistic preaching…for this I am truley sorry. I am doing the best I can. I know deeper is better. I’m just not deep. I’m not really sure what to do about that.
These changes will take some time. Please be patient. If you have any helpful suggestions as to how I can transition North Point Community Church into a church made up of a handful of believers who enjoy deep preaching please let me know.
On a positive note, the 8,000 adults who meet in groups of 8 to 12 in homes throughout our community can continue to meet in spite of the fact that they will no longer be able to worship together.
Thank you for your valuable insights. And please accept my apology.
Andy Stanley
Pastor, North Point Community Church
August 29th, 2005 at 10:28 pm
Wow.
August 30th, 2005 at 3:36 pm
I have written a post that addresses some of these issues within modern/emerging churches. There might be some further room for thought on this subject (from all angles).
August 30th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
If that really was Andy, I’d like to share some things with you. I am a fellow preacher and work very close to your church.
Regards,
Clay
August 30th, 2005 at 4:26 pm
It really was Andy. Let ‘er rip.
August 30th, 2005 at 6:26 pm
I was an intern at NPCC under the leadership of Andy Stanley. It was an incredible opportunity and I am extremely thankful for the vision the church has for apprenticing those who desire to be ministers. I was a BIG skeptic of NPCC. I too thought they must be watering down the gospel in order for thousands to be drawn in like they are. I was skeptical of a pastor with whom no parishioners can make an appointment. While a huge church, with high production that consists mainly of attractive, wealthy, white people does not sit well with me in some ways I can attest to the faithfulness of the leadership at NPCC. I was impressed with their willingness to allow twenty year old interns to question everything they do and their motives behind it. They not only allowed it but welcomed it, encouraged it and responded humbly to the challenges I presented. I personally pointed out things that I thought were inconsistent in their mission and practice to Andy Stanley and he had a humble, articulate, well thought out response. He thanked me for raising some hard issues and never attempted to avoid the hard questions. I found this to be true of most of the staff I encountered. They offer a rare example of church leaders who are not threatened, not egotistical, not prideful. While you and I may disagree with some of their methods, I can attest to the fact that they are faithful, God-seeking men and women. I expected the gospel to be watered down each Sunday and found insted that Andy preaches straight from scripture; he does not simply find scripture to back his topics. He is a good and humble man who has found himself in a position of great leadership, and I feel is handling it with integrity. Attend NPCC on a baptism Sunday and listen to story after story of how God has radically changed lives in that place. You can not deny the personal stories of life change that occur there. Is it how I would do church or where I would prefer to go all the time? Probably not. But I do believe it is a gospel preaching, Christ seeking, church led by faithful men and women.
August 31st, 2005 at 10:36 am
If it really is Andy, email me your phone number.
As for the readers of this post, I would kindly like to share part of my testimony with you. It is related to these postings:
I grew up in a Christian church and went to a Christian high school. I knew the Bible, had prayed the “sinner‚Äôs prayer”, and was baptized. BUT, my life after I prayed the “sinner’s prayer” was no different after than from before I prayed it. I still went out and got drunk, used bad language, had sex before marriage, watched TV shows that were extremely ungodly. I didn’t have a desire to read the Bible, attend church, or bear any spiritual fruit. My life was still bearing fruits of the flesh in abundance and I had no desire to live in a way that honored Christ.
I had not been born again. I was not a new creation. 2nd Cor 5:17 says (roughly) when we are born again, we are a NEW creature and that our old self and its nature have passed away, and we are made new. Likewise, when we are born again we die to our old nature and become alive in Christ. This is not my opinion - this is God’s Word.
What’s worse is that I thought I was saved because I had prayed the sinner’s prayer and I said that Jesus was God’s Son. Matthew 7:21-23 are the scariest verses in the Bible:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. (22) On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ (23) Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Did everyone see that? On judgment day, there are going to be many who thought they were saved, but they really weren’t! Many! Those people even knew about Jesus, because they said that they had lived for Him. The Bible says that only a few are saved – not many:
Luke 13:23-24 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, (24) “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.‚Äù
This is the message that is not getting out – not just at this church, but in most churches. Many who think they are saved are not. Again, this is not my opinion; it is straight from the Bible. Look at all of the parables of true converts and false converts for even more proof: The Wheat and the Tares, the Foolish and Wise Virgins, the Foolish Servant, etc.
What about you, reader? Are you born again? We have been taught to not doubt our salvation. The Bible says the exact opposite:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?
Reader, does your life reflect the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22ff) or of the flesh (Gal 5:19ff)? Of course, we are not perfect and will sin, but which one of these categories do you generally fall into? The Bible says that we will “know them by their fruits”, and John 15:8 says that if you really are a Christian, you will bear fruit and it will be evident: “By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.” If we love Jesus, we will obey Him (John 14:21).
Reader, please read James chapter 2 to see what true faith is, as opposed to false faith.
If you’ve found that you’re not sure you’re saved, please stop right now and repent of your sins. This means stop doing what the Bible says is wrong (sin; basically living for your own desires) and turn and put your faith in Jesus for your salvation. For more information, explained better than I can, please see wayofthemaster.com.
Thanks for your patience in reading this!
August 31st, 2005 at 11:44 am
This kind of understanding of what it means to be saved is exactly the kind against which Paul was waging epistolary war! Salvation is a gift, one that cannot be earned by any amount of doing good (i.e. generating spiritual fruit); rather, the generation of spiritual fruit results from the knowledge of grace! We will do good only once we have realized that salvation cannot be earned and has already been accomplished by God who alone can save us. Thus, the starting point for salvation is grace, whereas maturation in faith is gained by working through the Holy Spirit and bearing “spiritual fruit,” but you have the cart before the horse, so to speak.
And besides, how in the hell was that a letter to Andy?….
August 31st, 2005 at 11:48 am
As for the rest of my testimony:
When I was 24 I was waiting one day for night to come so I could go out to the bars with my friends. I was very happy getting drunk and trying to hook up. I didn’t want God, nor was I looking for Him. I was sitting there and I saw a Bible laying on the table next to me. Out of boredom, I picked it up and it opened to Romans (I know now that this was God’s plan and not coincidence). As I read, I became aware of my sinful nature – I had no desire to live for Christ and I lived for women, beer, and me, me, me. As I kept reading, God showed me through His Word that I was going to hell because of my sin, even though I thought I was a good person. I began to cry because I knew it was true and that I actually deserved hell. When I got to Romans 3, it reveals how a new righteousness from God is made available through faith in Christ. That’s when I repented of my own ways and asked Jesus to lead my life any way He wanted to. I asked Him to come into me and make me new – and He did! Instantly I had no desire to hook up, get drunk, or any of those things. I also had intense desires to read God’s Word and to tell others what Jesus had done for me and what He could do for them.
When my friends came over that night they were shocked, to say the least. Almost 10 years later they still don’t know what happened to the old me (even thought I told them). God gave me a new nature. I’ve seen it in many other people’s lives – when they are born again they are literally made new, just like the Bible says. I’ve seen alcoholics go completely sober in one night. I’ve seen men who swear and beat the women in their lives become humble and gentle. But this happened ONLY after they came to a point where God showed them that they were sinners headed for hell, and they repented in godly sorrow over their lostness. That is the point at which you can receive the grace of God through Jesus and be born again. Jesus was literally raised from the grave and will come into you and you will become a new creation.
We’ve all seen people who get saved, get baptized, and then a few weeks, months, or years later they are back to their old ways. There is no fruit of the Spirit in them. They have no victory over sin and lead sinful lives. This is explained in the parable of the 4 soils (parable of the Sower). If you are really born again, you will endure to the end. But if you’re not really saved, you will not endure to the end. If people come to Christ because they want a better life – health, wealth, happiness, then they are not coming to Christ on biblical terms. Their desires are self-centered. The only biblically legitimate way to come to Christ is through the cross – dying to self by admitting and confessing our sins to God and dying to our will daily and letting Christ live through us daily (Luke 9:23-25).
Thanks for listening, and may God bless you.
August 31st, 2005 at 11:54 am
Of course salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned. It is by grace alone. What I am talking about is after you are saved - after. If you are saved, the fruit of the spirit will come out naturally, without our effort (John 15). It’s God who causes the fruit, not me. What I’m saying is summed up in John 15:8, and this is after you are saved freely by grace.
August 31st, 2005 at 12:03 pm
“I‚Äôve seen men who swear and beat the women in their lives become humble and gentle. But this happened ONLY after they came to a point where God showed them that they were sinners headed for hell, and they repented in godly sorrow over their lostness.”
_________________________
I’ve seen men like that change, too, but it wasn’t because they prayed a sinner’s prayer. They just hit rock-bottom and realized the only way out was up. Does that mean that salvation can be found outside of the Gospel?
I don’t think so, because I don’t locate “salvation” in a “moment” as you seem to do. “Salvation” isn’t a matter of one moment in time when we human beings make some kind of a life-commitment to be a better person. “Salvation” has to do with spirit, soul, and eternity — indeed, the culmination of time, the fullness of time, even. This very phrase is used by Paul to refer to that moment when God saved us all! This isn’t about me accomplishing my salvation in the brief period of time that I walk the earth — to think so will end in humiliation, desperation, frustration, and existential failure! What this life is about is my preaching a Gospel of grace so that people can be led into newness of life led by the Spirit. That’s something that will always be around in stark contrast to the works-based individualistic salvation you’re preaching.
August 31st, 2005 at 12:12 pm
How are you getting works-based out of what I said?
As for people who hit rock bottom and change, sure it happens. But I’m talking about salvation and the newness of life that comes as a part of it, not a humanistic self-centered attempt to change oneself, although people can and have done that, but are still lost.
September 2nd, 2005 at 7:47 am
I’m impressed that Andy has enough time to read and post to blogs…that’s pretty cool. His point is well taken, even though sarcasm isn’t really the best way to get a point across, especially from somebody who has a natural talent for communication. Nothing said on this blog, from what I can see, was a personal attack against Mr. Stanley. Nor was it really anti-NP. It was just people sharing their opinions…some positive, some not so positive. People tend to be more, if not exaggeratingly, honest in blogs, and since this topic is such a personal and passionate one for most people, I can see how it could easily get a little out of hand. These were just people expressing their free speech rights and throwing out comments and perspectives, nothing more. There’s no conspiracy to shut down NPCC and little blogs like this are certainly not hurting attendance. Just let us rant, and if you do feel the need to comment Mr. Stanley, set us straight with facts, compassion and sensitivity, as one would expect from someone in your position. We can take it, and might even be better off.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:08 pm
Point well taken, Eric. I don’t take observations like those posted here personally. Seriously, but not personally. That’s why I felt the freedom to respond with a bit of sarcasm. But isn’t it a bit silly to be critical of a big church for being big? I know it is overwhelming for a first timer. I know it feels a bit like a sporting event out in the parking lot. I know it feels like it would be impossible to connect at a personal level. You can’t imagine the energy we expend addressing those issues. My vision is to connect 100,000 people in small groups. That’s where life change happens. Christianity is at its core, relational. I love the local church. I want North Point, Buckhead Chrurch and Browns Bridge Community Church to be the best they can be. So I’m constanly reading, listening, and looking around. By the way, Adam, great site.
September 2nd, 2005 at 9:34 pm
Unbelievable. The fact that “Believers” will criticize a church for the ability it has to reach (bring in people) and impact (allow God’s word to change their hearts through worship, mission and Biblical truth) individuals is beyond me.
So sad.
I have been apart of dying churches before where the theology was abundant but the mission was not. The mission and passion of these churches is inspiring. The fact that they leave behind the Sanhedrin is a good thing.
Keep chasing after the steps of the one who was scarred and His people and leave the critics to themselves.
Love God, love others and help New Orleans.
In His grip,
Greg
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:52 pm
Andy, it’s “truly” without an “e”.
September 3rd, 2005 at 8:47 am
Andy…THANK YOU for being humble enough to admit that even though the church is very successful, there are still issues and challenges that need addressing. Somehow seeing that posting made me feel much better about NCPP. Communication…a wonderful thing :-)
September 4th, 2005 at 5:48 am
Interesting, very interesting. Life in Christ is about the relationships, as Andy said in a previous post.
And here is Andy in the blog world having a blog relationship with someone, it is all about the relationship(s).
And doesn’t Andy’s involvement in this contradict the very thing this blog denounces, Andy’s, or any megachurches, ability to be personal and effective in a large environment, not unlike the internet itself.
If it is about the relationships we have, and it is, then the fact that a group is able to create an invironment that leads to sharing the gospel and that leads to smaller group gatherings for more intimacy then why are we critizing it? Big, little, medium, just be effective.
Acts 2:42-47 Peter tells us;
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Do you DEVOTE yourselves to the teaching of Jesus, to FELLOWSHIP with other Christians, to EAT with other Christians, and to SHARE their burdens? Big, little or medium church do YOU do this?
I have been apart of the corporate church world and the house church world. I have truly (with no e) learned to LIVE my life daily, moment by moment, for Jesus. To respond when I hear that Still Small Voice prompt me. I regularly SHARE my life with other believers over dinner, study and life experiences, and yes we do the same with non-believers. IT IS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIPS we have with people.
Acts 2:38-41 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off‚Äîfor all whom the Lord our God will call.”
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Was not the 1st church a mega-church, I mean 3,000 people at one time and more were added to their number daily???????????? Must have done small group settings to keep it personal as the previous scripture told…
Andy, thank you for being obedient to Christ and following the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
just my thoughts, peace!
September 5th, 2005 at 7:46 am
I couldn’t have said it better. Also, remember churches don’t just start out with 1000’s. They grow! As Lynda said a growing church is biblical. Let’s not start limiting the word “community” to just ourselves as Christ followers, but a passionate yearning to reach the community too. I‚Äôm part of a church that has exploded and it is impossible to believe it isn‚Äôt a God thing. You can listen to Perry Noble speak about our growing church, NewSpring, in our current series that focuses on our foundation here… http://www.newspring.cc/community/church.asp?pageid=14. The title is “Through the Roof” in the Foundations series. It‚Äôs amazing to see people of all ages in Anderson, SC being moved for God in an unreal way, and it‚Äôs not slowing down.
“So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them.” Mark 2:2
September 5th, 2005 at 10:30 am
Wow! First, Adam thanks for sharing your thoughts and thank you for being honest about it. Also thanks for not “judging” Andy or NPCC and for keeping your point ‘personal’ to you. As for the rest, would one person PLEASE tell me where GOD is upset at Mega-Churches? A Bible reference or two would be great. Can someone explain why Jesus had 4,000 people fed on one occasion and 5,000 fed on another occasion? That too seems a bit Mega. Now let’s take it another way; what’s wrong with 8,000 - 30,000 people getting together in one or two locations in order to get fed spiritually the Word of God? Did Jesus not say that HE was the bread of life? So then the issue isn’t about being big or small, touchable or untouchable, in concert style or in traditional worship style… it’s about getting fed! Jesus cared about feeding those people regardless of the attendence - notice though the Apostles solution was to just send them home miles away. But Jesus said no.. “Feed Them!” As for the CEO references, it’s a business model. I’m not going to lie and say it’s not. HOWEVER, where is it said Biblically that using a business model in order to manage large groups of people and their ever-changing needs is wrong? It sounds funny to me that chruches have HR departments yet, I see & understand the need for it. But, again I bet most everyone on this post works for some sort of corporation with a CEO that you’ve never met one-on-one with. Why? the company is simply too big for that. So, why not go get a job at a smaller company where you can? You don’t because it’s not about the CEO…it’s about you getting a decent paycheck and taking care of your family. Well, ‘Church’ is not about the pastor… it’s about you getting to know God and the Lord Jesus Christ and through THEM taking care of your family which incidently is also a part of God’s family. Let’s remember to love one another (like right now) EVEN if we don’t agree. And let’s remember that Jesus can’t be in Church unless He’s in you first!
September 5th, 2005 at 2:04 pm
May I respond to Clay’s post, then to Andy’s?
First, Clay wrote:
“If you’ve found that you’re not sure you’re saved, please stop right now and repent of your sins. This means stop doing what the Bible says is wrong (sin; basically living for your own desires) and turn and put your faith in Jesus for your salvation.”
Clay, I CAN’T stop doing what the Bible says is wrong. I’m like Paul, the good that I want to do, I don’t do. And the crap that I don’t want to do is the very stuff I keep doing?
Thank God for His son, whose blood sacrifice didn’t COVER my sin, it removed my sin. When I believed, I became born into God’s family.
I STILL sin! I STILL don’t follow God. But will HE be faitful to redeem me, as He promised?
He has to because He sealed me with His down payment, the HS, and that happened way back when I first believed.
What about my fruit? Well, for years I didn’t produce nuthin. What if I had died in a car accident before I’d had a chance to start “producing”? Would you have assumed at my funeral that I was never a believer? Please say not!
Not looking to argue with you…just a point of view that has freed me, and many others in ways indescribeable.
To Andy, when I read your first post, I naively thought you were immediately gonna start doing everything you said. (Did you stand at the back door yesterday and shake hands with folks?)
I would have to agree that sarcasm doesn’t become someone with your namesake.
On the other hand, I firmly believe that there is a place for mega churches, and tiny churches, and missional churches, and house churches,and churches in bars, and churches in jail, and churches just about everywhere, looking like just about anything.
So, if God has called you, Brother Andy, to the mega church, then please, mega-rock on!
September 5th, 2005 at 7:15 pm
The question I would want to ask Andy Stanley, if he should blog this way again, regards how he has structured his mega church with the satellite locations.
Question: The one thing that seems to differentiate the ’satellite’ churches from traditional new ‘church plants’ is that you made the decision to be the preaching pastor for all the locations - how did you arrive at that decision and how is it more effective than each congregation having it’s own ‘live on location’ preaching pastor?
September 5th, 2005 at 7:58 pm
Great question. The short answer is, our goal is to raise up an army of effective communicators. I don’t think it is healthy, nor sustainable, to have so much riding on one communicator. This year I’ll preach 35 times. The balance of the preaching is shared by three other communicators including Louie Giglio.
Our strategy has been driven by a commitment to create empty seats at optimal times. Additional campuses and additional auditoriums have been our way of accomplishing that.
I could go on and on. Hope that helps. Thanks for asking.
September 5th, 2005 at 8:45 pm
I started attending Buckhead Community Church earlier this year w/ my husband. We spent one year looking for a church in the Atlanta area. We had attended NPCC w/ his sister’s family since they go there (as do many, many other ppl we know), but it is a little far from us and also felt huge.
But the Buckhead auditorium is smaller (even tho there’s 4 services) so we liked that. Everyone is very nice even tho you aren’t likely to make friends just meeting someone on Sunday morning…
And the teaching can be quite simple at times, but we have found to be mostly theologically correct, though not plumbing the depth of the passages in their entirety sometimes.. (we both have bible college training so we are looking at that more than some ppl)..
we appreciate the many ministries of Buckhead/NPCC, the impact that its attenders/members are having in their sphere of influence, the good spiritual learning environments for children/youth… the worship is ‘cutting edge’… you know David Crowder and the like, and everything is very well done. The people are genuine, love Christ, love to worship him, and love to serve others. The congregation meets each others needs thru their small groups. I have yet to attend a church, small or otherwise, where the pastor attended to each persons needs, whether spiritual, physical, emotional, financial… this is what the congregation does, with leadership over them from their pastor. This continues at NPCC & it’s satellite churches.
Also, the wealthy may attend, but they are not stingy w/ their money and the gifts are used to do many things in missions and in the community.
And, this summer, I have probably heard about 5-6 different teachers on Sunday morning which I really like.
If you prefer a small community of worshipers, that’s cool. But what will you do when that small community brings their friends and doubles in size, and they bring their friends and family members, and on and on, until it grows into a ‘mega’ church? that is how those churches become large. People reaching out to other people. Being Christ to them!
Sorry if this was kinda long.
Glad you were able to visit when you were in Atlanta. Sorry for the saved seats. Next time come to Buckhead campus. We don’t do that! But you do need to get there early to get a seat!!
September 5th, 2005 at 8:52 pm
Trudi: But I think you’ve stumbled onto exactly the reason the megachurch movement makes so many pastors so uncomfortable. Those in the megachurch movement, with few exceptions, maintain that “tiny churches” which are not reaching out and not growing ARE NOT biblical, nor healthy. It’s not just someone growing their church to 20,000 that creates controversy — it’s that megachurch pastors are also saying that stagnant churches are not fulfilling the heart of the gospel; and that causes the real backlash. Of course, having thousands isn’t necessary to be healthy but being “external” and being committed to seeing unbelievers come to Christ is. And frankly, this makes a lot of Christians (read: mainliners) uncomfortable. With some mainline denominations losing 1 million people in the past 10 to 20 years, the megachurch movement isn’t just a phenomenon happening in their backyard, it’s a phenomenon that hits home because it clearly points out mainline faults and foibles. Did you know the average Presbyterian invites someone to church only once every 28 years? (Source: Barna Research Group.) So how do you save face for your dying church and denomination? Demonize people like Andy Stanley. Complain that he doesn’t preach the gospel, and avoid having to answer questions about your own unfaithfulness to the gospel.
Bu let’s face it, no matter how shallow Andy’s sermons may be, their supposed unfaithfulness pales in comparison to the unfaithfulness of those who stand by and watch their churches die out of concern for tradition that no longer speaks, the proper flow of liturgy, and the comfort of those already in the pew.
And despite the criticism that I’ll receive from my classmates who frequent this blog, a year at Princeton has only made this more evident to me.
September 5th, 2005 at 9:26 pm
Thanks for your answer Andy. One more thing I was thinking is that it would take a very special personality, someone really called of God and empowered by God, to handle the pressure of the leadership and ministry of a mega church and many subsequent satellite churches.
With power and fame comes temptation in many forms. Dynamic leaders need dynamic accountability teams in place to keep them grounded and focused. They also need dynamic prayer support.
I live in New York (and visited your church in Atlanta only once), but I will commit to holding you up in prayer as you seek to fulfill God’s call upon your life. May He be mightily glorified by your obedience my brother, and may you be kept pure before Him until that day. Peace.
September 5th, 2005 at 11:31 pm
Thank you for the prayers. Pray specifically that we will know how to show Christ’s love to the hundreds of people streaming into our city from the areas hardest hit by Katrina. This is a new challenge for our congregation. We want to be faithful with this stewardship of opportunity.
September 6th, 2005 at 12:25 am
Yes…I will pray specifically! And sincerely. And often. I like to imagine all the good that God will bring from this disaster. How exciting that you can be part of His plan with a front row seat to watch Him work!
September 6th, 2005 at 7:49 am
Zirschky, you’re right. Evangelization is next to nonexistant in Presby congregations. Difficulty is that the flip-side of folks invites people at the expense of mystery and doctrinal complexity. Evangelization for “megachurches” involves reducing salvation to a moment and the person of God to three or four sentences. My mom, a southern Baptist from Arkansas, just complained to me the other day about the lack of stringency in accepting people into the church — we need disciples, not fly-by-night converts (though we DO need converts; just not in the sense I’m using it here). Anyway, I think there is a balance to be struck, and the two camps that are subject to our suppositions fall on either end of a spectrum.
Peace,
- kp -
September 6th, 2005 at 1:55 pm
Kellen,
Are you trying to tell me that Presbyterian and other mainline churches are full of “disciples” and that’s why they just aren’t thriving? Is the PCUSA really so busy “making disciples” that they have no time to make converts. Please! Your argument defies logic. Disciples evangelize. It’s part of what they do. Period end. Further, what those in mainline churches often don’t understand is that their “doctrinal complexity” and “mystery” is often completely lost on the people in the pews.
Further, I think you’d be hard pressed to really find any megachurch that reduces conversion to just a moment, or God to “three or four sentences.” It might appear that way if you isolate sermons, mission statements, or take other vignette views of the ministry. But in my visits to place like Santa Cruz Bible, Graceland, Willow Creek, Saddleback, and others, I haven’t found this to be true when the ministry is taken as a whole.
At the same time, the mainline churches I’ve attended are full of people who “converted” at some point, and you can’t tell at all by the lives they lead. And they haven’t a clue about theology because church is just something they do because they’ve always gone to church. Much of the problem is that the communication styles being used in these churches are so out of date that theology and discipleship may be “communicated” upfront, but the message is never heard, absorbed or internalized by the people in the pews.
September 6th, 2005 at 4:15 pm
kp, when you write that your mom…complained just the other day about the lack of stringency in accepting people into the church…
well, I assume that your mom is an outstanding Christian and a good Southern Baptist who loves her church and our Lord,
but to me this seems like an attitude that seems to offend the very heart of the gospel (that Christian churches supposedly exist to support.)
September 6th, 2005 at 7:01 pm
“Are you trying to tell me that Presbyterian and other mainline churches are full of “disciples” and that’s why they just aren’t thriving?”
No, but thanks for putting those words in my mouth! ;)
_________________________
“Further, I think you’d be hard pressed to really find any megachurch that reduces conversion to just a moment, or God to “three or four sentences.”
Maybe so, but I grew up in a southern Baptist church, went to Sunday school every week for 18 years, and I’m here to tell you that evangelical theology is severely lacking in complexity, tension, and mystery. It’s an emaciated, ahistorical understanding of the Christian faith and practice that bothers me most, and that’s really what I felt growing up was the problem — and still is. That’s why I was agreeing with you (I think you read into my use of “disciples” because of its currency in liberal circles) that we need converts to a complex faith!
________________
“At the same time, the mainline churches I’ve attended are full of people who “converted” at some point, and you can’t tell at all by the lives they lead. And they haven’t a clue about theology because church is just something they do because they’ve always gone to church.”
These words could be written about practically any church in America. Plenty of evangelicals I know just go to church because that’s what they’ve always done, always been taught to believe.
_____________________
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to seem contentious with my comment. I just think there are a lot of problems with both mainline churches and evangelical “free church” churches. One system is overly concerned with the care of doctrine and tradition — the other with relevancy. Perhaps the two could learn from one another, if only those from each would listen….
September 6th, 2005 at 7:23 pm
Great discussion. Enjoyed reading every bit of it… especially the sarcasm of Andy!
September 7th, 2005 at 1:10 am
Andy -
Just curious… is it (in your opinion) healthier for the Church (capital C) to have aspiring pastors to join a movement with momentum (i.e. Northpoint, Willow, Saddleback, etc) or to pioneer something new?
In other words, would you rather see what you’re doing get resourced and supported by more staff and people… or would you rather see newer churches spring up in your area with smaller congregations struggling to get the fly wheel going?
(Oh yeah… and you can’t say “both.”) :)
September 7th, 2005 at 1:44 am
If it is indeed true that members cannot schedule appointments to visit Andy, I for one would be a little confused right now if I were a NPCC member. Andy has the time to seek out and refute a few mildly critical comments on a blog, but not enough time to schedule visits with at least a few of those who are supporting his ministry weekly? Although as an outsider I find his posting here very unexpected and interesting, it comes off a bit desperate and defensive. I do have to add that Andy’s sermon, I think it’s called “Matters of the Heart” is one of the best sermons I’ve heard.
September 7th, 2005 at 10:15 am
I don’t know Andy or how he operates his church at all, but here is a possible scenario that I have seen in other large churches that I am just applying to Andy in a really loose way to make a point:
lets see maybe…andy’s executive assistants’ phone rings off the hook all day. The church office gets hundreds of email requests daily. She tries to accommodate the expectations of (ok…for the sake of this example, lets say one congregant).
This takes her maybe 10 minutes to do (best case scenario). The coveted appointment with Andy is on the calendar.
Then lets say an emergency comes up before the anticipated day/time, as is apt to happen in a church so large, and responsibilities so vast. Now there is a conflict on the calendar. The executive assistant has her meeting with Andy to discuss how to handle this, what to shift around (takes a couple minutes), then she contacts the congregant and finds an agreeable time to reschedule. Managing this change in Andy’s schedule costs the EA another 10 minutes or so on the phone with the congregant (after maybe playing phone tag) and another couple of minutes of updating the calendar.
Finally it is the day of the meeting. Thirty minutes has been scheduled, but once the meeting starts and now approaches the end, the congregant isn’t really mindful of the timetable set by the church office and just has ‘one more thing’ he/she needs to discuss with the pastor. Or lets say the 30 minutes is honored, but is woefully short to effectively manage the content of the meeting’s ‘agenda’.
Let’s say the reason the congregant called the meeting to begin with is the desire to see changes within the ministry (let’s say the concern is that ‘just anyone’ can lead a Bible study as a ‘facilitator”, or that the parking lot attendant had not been as friendly as he could’ve been, or that people were saving seats in worship deterring others from coming, or that his preaching was not deep enough, or that 722 has gotten outta hand, or there needs to be more concerts, or desires to see the startup of rootbeer float Sundays, or, or…).
So, now in order for the congregant to leave a ’satisfied customer’, Andy must promise action of some sort. You know, he will look into it, talk to someone, involve the elders, propose something, pray about it.
Or he could take the time to discuss with the congregant all the reasons why things are done the way they are, or have evolved to be the way they are, or and can not be changed at this time, or doesn’t meet the vision of the church, etc. This dialogue can become lengthy and involved if the congregant has no background in church administration or no understanding of the basic premise of the ministry of NPCC. Or if he does, but just disagrees.
This is just a hurriedly drawn scenario of course, but mulitply something like this times 8000 or more. Each member with the ‘right’ to meet with Andy at their whim. He at their beck and call.
And imagine if their need to see Andy was not about ‘how’ the ministry is done, but they ‘need’ ministry because of a spiritual need or the need was for counseling. How can that be done with compassion and be effective in a one time, quick fix meeting?
Does he clear his calendar for repeat appointments to meet this need? Pass them off to someone else on staff? What if the congregant only wanted Andy to meet their need and no one else?
See how complicated this could get? How frustrated this can be for the pastor and the members alike?
Now, I imagine Andy surfing the web, late at night after putting in a full days work of ministry at NPCC or on the weekend (I am just making this up as I go along, obviously, but bear with me). He googles his church name and #5 on the google search engine is pomomusings. He clicks on it. Right away he can see that people are posting intelligent, provocative thoughts about his church. He is curious. He reads on. He hesitates to reply, but it doesn’t require an EA to schedule time on his calendar. It will take only a couple minutes - tops. He can post and then leave the ‘conversation’ at his convenience (just like each of us does, by the way). He can even do this a couple of times without it draining him or taking too much time away from other responsibilities or of his personal time.
I’m thinking someone who loves people so much to facilitate a mega church to meet their spiritual needs is a ‘people person’ - but who is just someone who has more time constraints than the rest of us, hey, but like us can find a few minutes here and there to reply to a blog. Especially one where seminary graduates (and others) are trying to figure out this mega church phenomenon and how it impacts the way we do church? Maybe what seems so obvious to him is lost on us and he tries to make his point sarcastically. Nothing wrong with that. Andy is maybe, just being Andy.
Isn’t that the beauty and convenience of blogging? I don’t have to invite each of you into my office to interact with you. I can do it in the morning in my pajamas (as I am right now), do it before that meeting in an hour, or while I am watching TV to catch up on the latest Katrina aftermath updates. I won’t have to refer anyone to anyone else. Or followup on anything.
But I get to make a contact with my brothers and sisters in Christ - and get to challenge someone’s thinking or offer prayer or request prayer. Or be encouraged. At the end of the day I think there is something very right about that.
September 7th, 2005 at 10:29 am
Tony…you are right…it is both. We have six strategic partner churches that are separate 501c3 organizations that use our model. They are living and dying on their own ability to raise fund while reaching their community. Most of the leadership for these church plants came from our staff. That is absolutely thrilling to me. We help ‘em get organized. Coach ‘em. And help raise some start up money.
At the same time, as I mentioned earlier, we are on a constant mision to create empty seats in our own worship environments.
Zach…You may find this hard to believe…but very few church members ever call me and want to meet. Honestly. The majority of the calls I get for meetings are from people outside our local church. And I rarely ever meet with any of those folks.
September 7th, 2005 at 12:20 pm
wow this comment thread has gone on for a long time. The funny thing is, I have read almost all of it before. Just change the church name and change the authors. Watered down gospel… mega church vs. small church.
I like the original post. Adam was able to say… Hey NP just isn’t for me. That’s cool. That’s why not every church in the world isn’t like NP. And I really appreciate that most everyone here has not turned this into a finger pointing contest and name calling.
I think different styles reach different people. Big churches, medium churches, and even small churches. But you see it isn’t the type of church that makes the difference in the persons life. Its God who does that. Different people communicate and relate in different ways. I believe God uses all the different types of churches to do this. It’s the truth in his word that will make the real difference. The music, the preaching style, the building… that stuff may bring people to the place. But it’s God who speaks to them once they show up. So shouldn‚Äôt you do all you can do to get as many people as possible to at least show up? Then allow God to do his thing?
September 7th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
I grew up in a large church - 2000+ members - and, looking back, never gave much thought to the size. My parents had friends there, my sisters and I had friends there, and I was blessed by the wealth of experiences I was offered, some of them possible because of the size of the church.
So as much as it seems out-of-character to me, I really have to say that the concept of a megachurch doesn’t bother me from a numbers point of view.
There MUST be perspective and balance in maintaining a large congregation, however. When my family left that church, many others did as well. A close family friend of ours wrote a letter to the pastor, concerned that there were more Sunday school/Wednesday night classes offered for seekers than for those who had been Christians for years and wanted to pursue deeper topics. Concerned that the church was more focused on bringing people into the church than keeping them there.
And she was right. She recieved a letter back from the pastor who informed her that the church had decided to focus its mission more on new members than on old ones. That was her impetus to leave and to find a new church where members were as welcome as visitors.
Perspective and balance. If a church is a money-making venture, if it is in competition with other churches to be the biggest and the best, if a church focuses on giving people the Gospel in small digestable amounts but doesn’t continue to feed their members, then there is something wrong.
The problem that megachurches must always grapple with is negotiating the tension between drawing in new members and feeding old ones. If it becomes all about the numbers, then there is a serious problem.
I know that someone will write back and say “but aren’t we supposed to bring as many people as possible to Christ, and isn’t that the main, if not only goal?”
I suppose. But I would hope that our churches could expect more of themselves than just churning out converts.
September 7th, 2005 at 3:02 pm
Interesting discussion…glad I found it. I live on the north side of Houston…so we have Fellowship of The Woodlands (Kerry Shook) in our backyard as well as Ed Young at 2nd Baptist and the then the mega of all mega churches….Lakewood Church and the Osteens.
I have very little experience with Mega churches having attended Fellowship of The Woodlands only one time….so that’s the extent of my sampling.
A couple of things surprised me there…1) that there were so many older people there (over 50, over 60) (given that the worship band rocked out!) 2) & that there was a continued emphasis on drawing more people in and getting them to serve in some capacity.
I often wonder what the purpose is in growing a church so large? Why not grow to some arbitrary number and then plant another church in a nearby neighborhood? Why is a church of 5,000 or 10,000 advantageous over one of 250 to 500?
I am involved in a church plant in the area. My family and I have been involved since early 2004 either in a Sunday evening bible study or, since last summer, holding church sunday mornings at our local community center. We move in on Sunday mornings and out after the service. We usually put out about 50 chairs and get anywhere from 20-50 people including kids…there….we haven’t grown much over the last year. We wonder why. We wonder if we place to much emphasis on growth and not enough caring about the people who do come. We do realize that ministry requires finances….and it requires believers to lend a hand and be involved in ministry. We want to be a beacon of light for the community by proclaiming the Word in Truth, Love and Grace.
September 7th, 2005 at 5:51 pm
nexenrod brings up one of my favorite subjects. What is the optimal size for a local church? When is a church big enough? When should a congregation launch a second church? We have been discussing that quesiton since the inception of North Point. I think we have discovered the anwer. Ok, an answer. And I would love to get some outside perspective. So, before I give you my answer, what do all the seminary students think?
This is not a trick question. I really do think we have stumbled upon a principle that can be applied in just about every church and church plant environment. But first… what do you think?
By the way, I love seminary students. I actually loved seminary.
September 7th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
as for the question about church size…i think it’s when you can effectively minister to all age groups that live in your community and when you have established a vibrant local and foreign missions team that are ministering to the felt needs as well as sharing Jesus Christ.
I can’t understand why anyone would drive over 10 minutes to go to a church. What would drive you to go outside your community to “do church”? Church is about community…it’s about where you live and the people that live where you live.
September 7th, 2005 at 9:21 pm
I’ve been reading this thread for a while and just had to jump in at Andy’s last question. It was: “What is the optimal size for a local church? When is a church big enough?”
I’ve been bouncing this question around for the last three years. I used to be involved in a sizeable church (2000+) and liked the resources it provided. However, it was a “Sunday school” model and small groups were just an add-on. Genuine community was hard to find.
Then, for the last three years during seminary, I attended a small neighborhood church of about 150. The community was great, but resources were tough and there was always a sense of “if we had more____, we could reach more people.”
One church felt too big, the other too small. So, being the mathematician I am, I concluded that the optimal church must be somewhere in the middle, say 800 people. That way, the organization had enough momentum and resources to be effective, but not so big that the logistics of multiple services and complex programming detracted from community. Interesting idea; a little too simplistic though.
Now, I’m on staff at a very large church. And amazingly enough we have both tremendous resources to do ministry, but the small group model we use is so intentional and strategic, that genuine community, discipleship, and life change is happening. In fact, at this point, assuming the primary leadership is capable and stays focused and our facilities remain logistically feasible, I don’t see what new barriers popluation growth alone would create that would prevent us from being effective. If and when we build new campuses, it’s only because our facilities here are ineffective at handling the number of people now coming, and it’s more advantageous to build new campuses in the areas from where people are driving than expand the “main” campus.
So, my conclusion is: it’s all based on leadership and logistic feasibility. Let’s be honest, some senior pastors are very godly and gifted, just not gifted at organizational leadership. For those senior pastors, it will be difficult to grow beyond a given number no matter what model they are using. Other senior pastors are very gifted at organizational leadership, and therefore, given the right model–a church that grows bigger by getting smaller–and the right logistical circumstances, numbers alone should never hinder growth. I guess I’m saying that the optimal church size is dependent on facility feasibility and good leadership. When it becomes logistically unfeasible or when the leadership has bumped up against their abilities, it’s time to plant.
Just my 2 cents. Would love to hear other opinions.
September 8th, 2005 at 12:04 am
Well if you like formulas there is always the 80% rule:
People feel most comfortable in a space when 20% of the seats are empty.
When 80% of the seats are taken, it is time to expand.
or
But you could take a different approach. What about serious reliance upon the Spirit to reveal when it is time to expand? Doesn’t God still speak that way? Might the time to expand be different for each church and congregation dependant upon God’s will and plan for them? If the leadership is prayfully, in faith, seeking God to show them how to grow the church, might His Spirit actively interact to reveal the right time, place, method - specific for them as He provides the increase?
September 8th, 2005 at 1:05 am
Andy -
Per your question, I believe the best time to plant is when it fits the purpose of your church to do so. This requires forethought and planning, as well as a recognition of what will need to be in place to head things up. Ideally, you will have a leader to head this up or else it’s not worth doing. When the core team is in place, you let the group overflow out the door.
A question on my end…
Now that you’ve been a “successful” lead pastor, would you ever consider being a staff member again (i.e. let’s say Hybels calls…)?
September 8th, 2005 at 6:48 am
Okay, as a seminarian I’ll chime in on the “optimal size” question: Among other things I think optimal size depends on at least two factors including community type/size and God-directed vision. Where I used to minister, in Twin Falls, Idaho, a town of around 40,000 in southern Idaho, the possibility of a 20,000 person megachurch was a pretty ridiculous idea. Even the population of the surrounding area was far less than 100,000. But secondly, in the rugged independence of the Idaho mindset, bigger was usually seen as scary, and so chuches battled the same problem as every other business or organization that became too large: people would usually run in the other direction. It was a weird culture, but I’m sure one that exists elsewhere. I was in a church with an average attendance of 600, and there were about 1,000 people in town who “identified” themselves with our church. Basically, one out of every 40 people I encountered around town knew me as a pastor at the Church of the Nazarene. As a pastor, I felt like I was living in a fish bowl most of the time! Should we have been a church of 10,000? I don’t believe so. The church is still growing, and a year after I left is hovering around 800 people per Sunday. But they’re in the process of spinning off another church. Why? First, because of the local cultural aversion to “really big stuff” we figured that maintaining a church of no more than 1,000 would create an environment in which the average person in Twin Falls would be comfortable. But they also realized they had reached a significant number of people in their target demographic while other demographic subsets went unreached. Twin Falls Nazarene has a great impact on the affairs and lifestyle of Twin Falls, Idaho, but there was a whole class of people who just weren’t ministered to by the style of the church. So, they went to the local speedway and started a “church” out of the folks who consider NASCAR their religion. How about that for an unreached demographic?
So, I’d say community size/type is an issue in determining the appropriate size for a church before spinning another church off.
And we shouldn’t forget that God-instilled vision is indispensible. Unless the Lord builds the house….
September 8th, 2005 at 6:54 am
First, Northpoint rocks! Everything they do is top-notch. And they do it all, put in all that