Blog dialogue limitations…
December 26, 2004
apostasy
n 1: the state of having rejected your religious beliefs
Thanks to Dave for directing me to the fact that I’ve been labeled an Apostate. The image on the right is directly from Chris P.’s blog. At first I was going to say that I’m in the company of some phenomenal prophets and Christian voices (Emergent UK, Dave @ Disaster Area and Real Live Preacher, who is amazing!). And then I saw that I was lumped right in along with TBN, Tim LeHaye and the Toronto Blessing! Chris P., you can speak for yourself on this blog, but really…The Apostasy? This is ridiculous!
I think I’m realizing that this wonderful world of blogs does have some limitations. I echo Jamey’s comment and wish/hope that we could all sit around a table, break bread together and have this conversation. I know I would be willing to do this, and I hope (though I am not sure) that everyone else would be so willing. I also echo various other commenters who suggested that this conversation may just be one of those that needs to take place person-to-person, in the context of relationships and fellowship. Because people are just using the same ‘ole arguments (in some ways, it feels like the same argument as this and this, but just with different players).
So…blogs are limited, people are getting pissed and the comments and conversation here just sounds and feels very circular. So what is a blogger to do? Do I avoid this conversation? (I don’t really want to…) Do I close comments? (Maybe…) Do I try to steer the conversation in a different direction? (I don’t think that would work) So for now, this conversation is done. I am irritated that people took it in the direction that it ended up. This topic might come up again on this blog, but until I figure out a better way to handle it, we’re going to be moving on. The comments are closed on the two previous posts.
I would hope that everyone, whatever their position on this issue, would continue to live in the knowledge and experience of God’s grace, the realization that God is in control and that some of us need to get our hands off of the controls and let God do what God does, and let us all error on the side of God’s love and grace more than anything else…
Tags: Blogging, Conversation, Dialogue, Sexuality
Posted in Sexuality
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
December 26th, 2004 at 8:14 pm
WHEW!
Adam, I had been meaning to confront you about your apostasy…but am SO glad that Chris P. beat me to it. That’s a weight off my shoulders.
I love my little heretic.
December 26th, 2004 at 10:21 pm
Well, Adam, welcome to a rather open fellowship! Looking for your fellow members? You can start with RLP and work backwards, or you can start with a young Catholic monk named Martin Luther and work forward - but so often “apostate” ends up being a badge of honor. The only reason I haven’t made his roll of shame is that I’m not yet a big enough flea to be swatted, I guess.
As for the conversations you’ve kicked off which have devolved over time…welcome to ministry. Some people come to conversations of faith thinking that they know the answer(s), and just need others to accept the “one true way”; some come with hopes of finding an answer. I thank God for you opening the conversation and encouraging people to bring their understandings to voice…though it’s hard not to take some of the excoriation personally.
A friend of mine often says, “I haven’t heard of anything that looked, smelled, sounded or tasted so bad we can’t talk about it.” Personally, I believe that if even one person heard a different voice, considered a different position, or found a desperately-needed hint of grace, then the effort to engage folks was worth it. Of course, after I get pelted with abuse on one topic or another, maybe I’ll feel differently…
For me, I’m going to recommend your entries to several gay friends, who struggle with believing that anyone in the Christian church is their friend. They know the folks who are their enemies - but it might help them to know some of us believe they have a friend in Jesus.
My own stick-my-toe-in post on the hot-button topic can be found here, if you (or anyone else) is interested.
December 26th, 2004 at 10:43 pm
What I find most fascinating is just to what great extent a person who finds your blog so heretical will continue reading it. Participating in it. Obsessing over it. Very interesting. Like a mosquito drawn to the light.
December 27th, 2004 at 12:38 am
If I wasn’t so smart, I’d think Chris P. has some sort of strange crush on you.
December 27th, 2004 at 11:18 am
As a long time member of this non-exclusive fellowship, I welcome you warmly. The journey is arduous yet rewarding, and I think you’ll find the cloud of witnesses to be fine company, indeed.
December 27th, 2004 at 11:49 am
Laugh away guys.
Adam’s isn’t the only blog that I browse and thoroughly disagree with and/or comment on.We arecalled to proclaim the Word and to be watchman. The battle is to be turned back at the gates. Isaiah 28:5-6. Since you choose to re-write and discard scripture and even history itself I say the label apostate fits or possibly “deceived.” Speaking of obsessing, why even put up a post about my obviously myopic and technologically inferior blog? Why visit and comment, or even care about what I post or believe? Obviuosly I will never reach the pinnacle of popularity of this blog, so why worry about it? Luke (6:26 )
Sorry Steve, none of you have anything in common with Luther as he did not reject the scriptures as mainly fiction. Nor did he believe in the Lord God “omni-impotent”
If you read through some of the comments on my more recent posts, you will see that I have been called ignorant, offensive, an arrogant twat!!?? (How do the feminist christians feel about the use of that term?)
However I will not censor nor close any argument that is transpiring as I feel that it is part and parcel of the exposing and conquering of darkness. Eph 5:6-17
If you can’t take the fire, don’t blog.
Keith, maybe I do have a crush on Adam. Maybe I am considering “coming out”. Maybe I should claim to be gay, as that is the only thing that would merit your “respect”. Hypocrites all!
Adam is right about the fact that God is still on the throne and we need to keep our hands off the controls. Actually we need to understand that we have never had control. I just wonder how that fits the process theology, open theistic thoughts you support. Can’t have it both ways.
If you believe that you are following Christ, then obey His words. Luke 6:22-31.
December 27th, 2004 at 1:12 pm
Such are the ways of blogging. You either have to get used to it or quit the enterprise altogether.
Still, I find the term “apostate” to be a difficult one to deploy towards any member of a Protestant denomination. The history of post-Reformation Christianity in the West has been one of continual abdication in favor of new doctrines or churches which allow persons to retain whatever lifestyles best appeal to them. Calling someone an apostate implies that they had a core conviction to the truth of an idea from the beginning as opposed to the thoroughly more modern approach of continually tweaking supposedly transient ideas around current conditions. While I typically dislike the excercise of generalizing populations, I have been hard pressed to find populations of Protestant Christians between the ages of 16-30 who do not typify in some significant way the previously stated “theological” mentality.
As for homosexuals I agree that many probably do feel they have no friends in the Christian community. That is unfortunate and I believe every Christian ought to make a sincere commitment to change that view. At the same time, befriending homosexuals ought not to be confused with endorsing homosexuality as a morally correct lifestyle. A close friendship will likely lead to eventual conflict as the modern pop social outlook on gays is one which refuses to treat the lifestyle as anything less than laudable. Those who disagree with homosexuality on moral grounds are labelled “homophobes”; the new “Scarlet Letter” for our sexually warped times. For that reason alone, I don’t blame Christians for being leery of coming into contact with gays as it seems almost inevitable they will be blacklisted for not ultimately accepting homosexuality. Still, that doesn’t mean Christians ought not to “bite the bullet” and befriend them anyways. What is Christianity after all if it ever becomes absnet of stigma, social pains and popular scorn?
Anyways…
December 27th, 2004 at 3:20 pm
Chris, first of all, no one made any comments about your technologically inferior blog. Second, you continue to paint in broad strokes, claiming that we all believe the scriptures to be mainly fiction and call all of “us” (whoever the “us” is) hypocrites!
You’re right Chris. I can’t have it both ways. And that’s why I didn’t say, “God is in control of everything…” I am not sure of (as you must be) exactly what God has control of.
But it’s interesting that you bring up open theism. This week, it’s my goal to sit down and read The Openness of God and do a 15-20pg paper on Open Theism and how it relates or could be understood from a Reformed Perspective. I think it will be a very interesting time to do this paper, in light of the horrific tragedy in Asia. The problem of evil is perhaps the hardest of all questions, no matter if you’re an open theist, or hold to a more Reformed, Calvinist view - no matter WHAT view you hold, it’s an incredibly difficult aspect of our faith.
It will be interesting to read what the open theists say about the problem of evil. And maybe this is something I’ll write about on the blog…
December 30th, 2004 at 3:32 am
I think I took a bit of the heat off you, bro…I brought him here and I think that should keep him busy for awhile. : ) And hey…the folks in Toronto aren’t so bad! (And Andy and Nekeisha of the Jesus Radicals are _dope_)
I’ve gotcher back…
February 5th, 2005 at 4:17 am
Adam, the list is back on Chris P.’s blog. Only with a new title.
February 2nd, 2006 at 4:44 pm
I don’t agree when you say ” this wonderful world of blogging has some limitations.” It certainly has no limitations. This could be answered by the fact that there are many bloggers who do believe in free blogging.