Niners Camp: 2nd Night
July 6, 2004
Camp is continuing to go well. I gave a talk on God’s Creation yesterday; focusing on how we can listen for God and experience/encounter God through God’s Creation. Andy followed up last night with the ultimate creation of humanity, and God’s love and design that God put into us. We laughed a lot last night, which was great. Led the students in a guided Ignatian prayer last night, we’re doing the Jesus prayer tonight, then a contemplative prayer tomorrow night, and lectio divina on the last night. I had a lot of fun just getting to know the students better yesterday, but one conversation with a girl yesterday raised some questions for me…
She said, “Bro Dean [that's my name], I have some questions for you…” and she proceeded to ask questions along these lines:
- Why is it fair for someone to be horrible for their entire life, kill people, etc. and then on their death bed accept Jesus and get into Heaven…when someone could be good their entire life and just not accept Jesus and go to Hell?
- What about those people in the 3rd-world countries living out in the jungles who never hear about Jesus?
- Why am I supposed to trust and believe in the Bible? How do I know some dude just didn’t make up that whole Adam/Eve story?
- Why did Adam/Eve have to screw up the rest of us?
- I can’t believe in something/someone I can’t see…and I can’t feel.
She’s here with a friend who *thought* this girl was a total Christian, and she is standing there while her friend is saying all these things, asking these questions, saying she doesn’t know if she believes in God or not. It’s surprising how quick the other fellow campers are to jump in and give their answers (albeit Sunday School answers) and share their “concern” or “disapproval” for her not believing in God. She says she came up here this week to check it out - to learn more. She doesn’t want to just blindly/naively believe in something she’s not sure about.
I applauded her honesty, her questions, her desire to search. I didn’t really give her many answers…I just asked her more questions.
But it’s incredibly annoying/funny how when I was talking with her yesterday (which turned into a group of about 8 campers), how quick I just want to jump in and give her the easy/cliche/apologetic answers. “Oh, you can’t believe in something you can’t see…? Well, do you see the wind? No…but you can FEEL the wind, or you can SEE the EFFECTS of the wind…” — which I did say to her but gave it a disclaimer of being a really cheesy Christian analogy…and her response is “Yah, well, I don’t feel God…”
It is so easy for us to simply give the easy answers…when I’m uncomfortable, and not sure what to say - these are the things that pop into my head first. And that annoys the hell out of me. I don’t want to be that person. I don’t want to give the easy/cliched-answers - no way. Giving her “More than a Carpenter” or “The Case for Christ” was not going to help her any (I don’t think). I don’t think she necessarily cared about the historicity of the Bible, or all the factual/archeological evidence…
And I don’t really know where to go from here…any thoughts anyone???
I pulled her aside after campfire last night and challenged her to pray a pray every morning. I said, “I know it’s a bit of a weird thing to pray to a god you aren’t even sure exists…but I just want you to do this for me. Each morning when you get up this week at camp, pray this prayer: ‘God, I don’t even know if you’re real or not…I have no idea. But…if you are real, if you’re *really* God, then please reveal yourself to me.’ Now, this isn’t like a guaranteed-to-work prayer, but simply allow yourself to be open to the fact that God very well MAY exist and that God just might love you…”
I saw her this morning, gave her that “Did you do it” look and she smiled and said yes…
Tags: Apologetics, Evangelism, God, Youth Ministry
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
July 6th, 2004 at 5:41 pm
Personally, I think “More than a Carpenter” or “The Case for Christ” don’t really get you anywhere. I think they promote “head-based” rather than “heart-based” faith.
I think the best answer to all of those questions is “I don’t know.” Frankly, no one REALLY knows. There are no good answers when someone you love dies too soon. Or when terrorists kill innocent people. Or when Christians commit evil in the name of Christ.
But I think we all want to experience the “more” in the world that we know is out there. I don’t think you can ever prove rationally that God exists. But we can experience God, through prayer, study, music, etc.
Ultimately it comes down to a choice. We can choose to believe or not to believe. We can choose to let God’s grace work in us and through us. We can also choose to let our questions separate us from God or to bring us closer. Even Jesus had questions. “The darkness lasted three hours. At three o’clock, Jesus groaned out of the depths, crying loudly, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mark 15:34 - The Message)”
We can have questions and still be faithful. I don’t think God needs you to have a perfect theology to be forgiven. But I could be wrong…
July 6th, 2004 at 10:52 pm
I have to agree with you, Brian. Sometimes, “I don’t know.” is the best answer possible.
The other one that I have is… “Those are really good questions. I’ve been asking some of them, myself, for a while. There are times when I’m not sure if there’s a God. There are other times when I’m absolutely certain.”
By the way, if you’re wrong on the “perfect theology” thing… well… there are going ta’ be very few forgiven folk in this world!
Prayers are with you and your campers, “Bro Dean”.
Blessings and peace - Richard
July 7th, 2004 at 8:31 am
Definitely some good questions, the same ones I asked my youth leader 10 years ago at a large (bigE)vangelical church when I wondered why I should not “sin” like my friends, when God would just forgive me anyway. He replied to me, “because God commanded you to.” Hmm, no wonder I’m a Presbyterian now. Geesh.
Well, these questions are precisely the problem with good old american moralist based Evangelicalism. The “if you’re a Christian you wouldn’t drink, smoke, have sex, etc.” type of theology, based only on morals.
Thank God the questions this young woman is asking are not the basis for our salvation, who was the most good, and who was not, etc. The question is not about “being good”, it is about LOVING GOD, because GOD LOVES US.
I think Jesus answers the “good, bad, accept Christ when you die,” question very well in his parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15. For a long time I could really relate with the jealous older brother, feeling like he was not getting his fair share. But the truth was, he was not truly loving his father.
As far as the book question, especially relating to Jesus and these questions is a difficult one. I personally think our evangelical brother, Phil Yancey’s books, The Jesus I Never Knew, and What’s So Amazing About Grace discuss many of these questions. (My opinion is that Yancey is a small-(e)vangelical, reformed theologian in disguise, possibly the best thing for the pop-evangelical culture.)
For a more “mainline, small-(e)vangelical perspective,” consider Why Christian? for those on the edge of faith, by Douglas John Hall.
July 7th, 2004 at 3:54 pm
the questions i remember being most helpful to me in this part of my life were things like “why is it important to you to figure out if god exists?” and “what difference does in make in your life if god exists? in other peoples lives? to humanity at large?”
im not really sure why these questions were helpful… because the answers dont really put you anywhere… but in deciphering my own answers/motives/thoughts i came by some truth and beauty.
July 8th, 2004 at 11:19 am
I think the people who struggle with deep questions are a lot closer to the Kingdom than those of us who memorized the pat answers to those deep questions so we could recite them back when the time came and then went happily skipping down the street confident in having done our Christian duty.
I think the most fun thing about this camp for you will be observing what God’s doing in this person - and also, what God’s doing in the kids around for whom doubt and questions are illegal, impossible problems.
July 8th, 2004 at 12:44 pm
hey bro! your direction for her to pray was awesome!
one thing i know about god is that he isn’t scared of our doubts or our questions or our fears or even our failings….
and by getting her to encounter god even in her doubts is totally positive. when rob came to jesus, he gave god two weeks…sort of “ok i’ll give you two weeks to prove that you’re there, that you matter and that life with you is better than life without you”
the guy who challenged him to follow jesus drew a line in the sand…or rather his carpeting and asked him to choose…to be willing to be willing…
so rob gave god two weeks…and now it’s been over 20 years!
blessing for a great rest of camp!
and an amen to reading yancey!
lil