Make it a Non-Issue Now
May 1, 2004
Ran across this sad story from Jen today. A fellow blogger, Tammy, preached at her church and received a horrific letter from a man who is associated with this ministry. I make no apologies for saying this is a horrific letter and that this man will have much to answer for before Christ (as will I, but his letter was sinful). I really don’t want to get into a discussion on women in ministry here. But this is just one more example of why this needs to be a non-issue for all of us today; not just emergent folk, or pomo folk - but for all of us who claim to pursue Christ and share his love!
Tags: Ministry, Women-in-Ministry, Womens-Issues
Posted in 
Adam Walker Cleaveland: 
May 1st, 2004 at 5:20 pm
Hey Adam, thanks for posting a link to TJ’s blog or I would’ve never found that. I posted a lengthy comment over there to hopefully encourage her in all that she’s doing.
This whole thing just comes at a time things were starting to “look up” for women in ministry, it seemed. There was the discussion group at the Emergent convention in San Diego, and a woman on staff at my church (warehouse242.org) is even begin the process to become ordained.
So this seems like kind of a “setback,” but I hope that it’s not. It’s just a realization that there are still many people out there who sincerely believe that women have no role in church leadership or pastoral ministry. There are hurdles yet to be overcome. At least we’re all striving to be biblical, and hopefully in the end the Holy Spirit will sort it all out.
May 2nd, 2004 at 12:43 am
Steve…this is an example of where “striving to be biblical”…well, just plain sucks when it comes out like it did with this letter.
I think this is possibly an example of the “bad faith” McLaren talks about in his book “Finding Faith.”
May 3rd, 2004 at 10:14 pm
Got here via your comments on Jen Lemen’s blog. Unfortunately the Sovereign Grace movement is alive and growing by leaps and bounds. They stand firmly on the beliefs spoken in that “horrific letter” and are founded by the likes of John Piper and Wayne Grudem. I wish this fellow were an anomaly, but no such luck.
May 4th, 2004 at 2:34 am
If you think this letter is so “horrific”, what are you going to do when something really difficult confronts you? I think some people need to develop a thick skin;a trait Jesus most certainly exhibited. Why is it that the emergent folks never address an issue on its’ own ground? This man is using his understanding of Scripture to make his point, so confront and debate on the basis of Scripture, not some feminist political perspective. The problem is the ec hasn’t any useful knowledge of the Bible, as they have no belief in the application of the Word as authority, a doctrine followed from the times of JESUS and the apostles. (Study the writings of the early fathers of the church and see for yourself.) I doubt this man is losing any sleep over your opinions of him. To use your own buzzword, why don’t you “engage” him?
Has anyone attempted to contact and address this issue with him? I doubt it. Where is the pomo quest to understand all men? It’s amazing to me how a “movement” dare claim divine sanction and rant to no end at how wrong, and unloving the institution is, and then turn around and blow someone off as one of the damned ones. Sounds a bit hypocritcal to me, as you are doing the very thing you accuse the “dying” modern church of doing. Where is the concern of Jesus for this man? You don’t win simply by shouting someone down. As for the “likes” of John Piper,(now there’s a horrible role model for our kids);Monsieurs McClaren and Sweet and whoever, can’t hold a candle to his teachings on Biblical doctrines and their practical use. His church is growing by leaps and bounds because he teaches straight from the book, and people are hungry to understand the Word, not the vaporous blather of post-modernism.
May 4th, 2004 at 12:56 pm
well there you have it. Let’s pack up and go home. Chris has spoken and that is that, he does speak after all with the authority of the word! Of course we should address him on the basis of the “word” and when he uses it I will approach him. He uses his socio-political agenda to gaze at the text, oh wait we all do. What would useful knowledge of the bible look like? The problem with debating scripture is that no one ever wins. The scripture was not written to be mastered but embodied. Since there is no one meaning of any given text or sets of texts how would one proceed in this debate? The funny thing about authority is the bible is not The Word JESUS is. The bible has authority only as the spirit indwells it. As for Piper he is a gifted teacher, as is warren etc. The issue is they, and you chris, seem to think that doctrine is innerrant and set in stone. That just does not make sense. Language is not fixed meaning is not a correspondence motif nor is truth for that matter. Adam keep plugging away. Chris keep pointing out the short comings of the EC.
May 4th, 2004 at 2:38 pm
Chris, I’m really not going to get into an argument about the issue of women in ministry here…again. It is a non-issue. However, I think that more than thick-skin (not quite sure how biblical that is, since you want to look at the Bible) - Jesus was a man of true and utter compassion. When it comes to the type of letter Tammy received, and other instances of these same types of situations, Jesus is not calling us toward a “thick-skin-mentality” - but rather to a posture of compassion. I don’t know you, we’ve never met - but I definitely do not get the “compassion vibe” from any of your comments.
May 4th, 2004 at 3:15 pm
I’d like to respond to Chris. I tried leaving a comment on your comments page but had some technical difficulties.
Chris, I have to say that for all your complaints about “over-reacting” and inflamed debate, I found your comments the most caustic, on TJ’s blog, here, and on your own website. I think you may have some things to say, but your accusations and sarcasm reduce your credibility. You come across, inadvertantly, I hope, mean-spirited and rigid. I appreciate the fact that you retracted some of your comments in response to Tammy’s correction, but I lost your point in the midst of your attitude.
May 5th, 2004 at 1:01 am
There is so much here to respond to,I will keep it brief and post a more fleshed out version at my site. I have been having a problem with the comments link so you may reply via my email link if you wish as it doesn’t bother me if anyone wants to write and critique.
First of all Scott, I will keep pointing out the shortcomings of the ec, as there is a neverending list.You have no understanding of the authority of the word. With what authority do you speak? How does anyone know anything that Jesus said or did without reading the book? If the book has no authority or authenticity, how can you even trust the gospel accounts of the Lord’s life and ministry? How do you know Jesus is the Word without learning that fact from the Word? GOD entrusted His story to a written text and fallible men. That says more about Him than it does about us. Jesus said the scriptures testify of Him. How does that work if it can’t be trusted
I will say for the thousandth time, I bring no socio-political agenda to the text. I see the ec as the social-cultural-political entity. These things have nothing to do with the Body of Christ.If the Bible has authority only as the Spirt indwells, does that mean one day it has authority and the next day it doesn’t,since it would be impossible to know exactly when the Spirit is indwelling? Thank GOD that isn’t the case. This arguement and the one about language and truth not having fixed meaning are cop-outs.
Kind of the same methods that the LDS and Jehovah Witness’ employ.
Adam, it wasn’t my intention to debate women in ministry either. In fact I was hoping it could be avoided totally. The LORD had to been thick-skinned just to tolerate His sojourn on this earth. As for the compassion of the LORD, I have only seen it exhibited toward Tammy,and none toward this “psycho” Baptist brother. I still say it’s hypocritical. The ec is no different than what it criticizes.Finally you are right. You don’t know me at all.
Phyllis ,your accusations would come as a complete surprise to the Navajo congregation I serve as worship leader and small groups leader. I come across as I am, blunt and to the point and someone who doesn’t like to see the Lord’s time wasted over non-issues. As for sarcasm, I believe the ec has the lead in that.